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Nice new Laser for Christmas

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nice new Laser for Christmas
    Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Exactly why the Laser builders haven't provided independent information about tolerances is an interesting question. There could also be some very interesting studies, such as double-blind testing of boats with different rakes and weights.


Making a bit of a rod for your own back if you publish that stuff though aren't you... By and large the majority seem to believe variances in the Laser are within reasonable bounds. If you spend a lot of money on a serious study and demonstrate that actually, no, the build tolerances need to be considerably tightened then you've made yourselves very unhappy boat builders.

And if you publish measurements and tolerances everyone will start measuring their boats, there will be rumours going round about which are the best numbers, and yo'll get hassle with people rejecting boats that are particularly far off the numbers.

I think the status quo probably suits most parties best. And as I said above, clear communication is scarcely an ILCA speciality...

There are also very few people who really want to commit to the work of a serious study, only anoraks like me. Case in point, the Solo fleet Captain at our club has refurbished an old Solo and is racing it against new boats to get an idea of relative speed, but when I suggested spending a day doing short races and helm swaps for a proper numerical trial of relative speed it was not greeted with enthusiasm by he sailors.
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Null

The Internet forums did no damage with the eps vs 300 as frankly I. 1998 they simply did not exisist 

Umm, no. Plenty of discussion on line back then, typically on usenet (rec.boats.racing was the normal venue) or on BBS type systems like Compuserve or CIX.
I don't recall *any* significant 300 vs EPS flamewarring on line back then, perhaps we were all too busy ganging up on the 5 Tonner fan [grin]


Blimey Jim, you must have had all the toys!

I was in yr2 of my degree when the EPS and 300 were launched, and the only accessible internet was in University libraries. Internet access from home was still largely confined to those whos employers provided them with a dial-up router.

As a Laser sailor at the time I was extremely interested in both boats and remember having pictures of both on my wall as inspiration to get a good job when I left Uni such that I could buy one.
One of my mates who was in our Uni Sailing Team with me, was a rather good Laser sailor in the crowd with Ben, Hugh Styles etc. and as a consequence was able to borrow boats for the inaugural nationals of both the EPS and RS300. The only discussions that I was aware of at the time were general chats with people like him who had sailed both. I dont recall any real battle emerging and it never really felt like people were heavily defending either.
I do however remember that the Laser sailor in question firmly believed that the 300 was too extreme and that the EPS would be a better progression for your typical Laser sailor.
Both boats had issues at the start, I think that is fair to say but ultimately RS were able to sort more of theirs and hence make the 300 a more sellable boat.

As a result when I left University my first pay check was all lined up for a 300 but then I foolishly had a go in a 600 and hung up my hikers!!!

We certainly live in a changed world now, and I'd hate to be a marketing man in the current climate where every man, woman, child can give their views founded or not, without having a physical face to respond to. It also makes it very difficult to convince potential buyers to ignore the cr*p and focus only on the genuine users reviews.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 14 at 12:02am
And the other side of that particular coin is there were some suggestions that emerged that the Laser sailors who sailed both were encouraged to peddle that line, some might say induced.

And the flip side of that is that RS pitched the 300 wrong: too much of a 'boat for all seasons'.  And the demographic meant that you either had to be young but commit your first pay check, or be buying a mid-life crisis toy: so there were a lot of boats that moved on quickly, reinforcing the negative vibes.

Of course the other side of that coin is those of us who stayed with it.  From the first Nats there's me and the great Barry Steel still sailing them: well in to his pension he proves that it's not that extreme.

Your certainly right on issues.  The 300's was the dual mast rake - once that was fixed it moved on.  The EPS' complex set-up and I think LPE issues meant it was more of a struggle.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 14 at 12:04am
Back in the days of 56k dial-up .... I seem to recall never ending emails with filth attached to it, forwarded and resent in permanent loop, usually originating from a soton.ac.uk domain name.   It was boring after the second visit to the library computer (singular) to check mail, and the tutting was understandable as the porn was preventing someone getting on JANET... Whoever the hell she was, but she seemed to be putting it about a bit.

The vaginas even had hair on them in those days, but only if you could be arsed to wait for the download as some grainy bitmap pixelated top to bottom.

You mean people talked sh*t about boats back then too? Well I never.... I could have found a use for my uni Internet account after all.

Edited by kneewrecker - 04 Dec 14 at 12:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 14 at 12:43am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

Back in the days of 56k dial-up ...

56k!! You were lucky.

In my day, we dreamed of something as fast as 56k...
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 14 at 1:07am
Originally posted by craiggo



Blimey Jim, you must have had all the toys!


I think it was the 92 Americas cup that got me excited about the possibilities of the net, you guys have no idea how radical it was to be able to get mark roundings in near real time on a text only browser. Might have been 95. Certainly in mid 95 I produced the first Cherub Web site, which fortunately seems to precede archive.org so none of you can look at how awful it was...
I think it was 1997 that Ilovewight and I stated my Plusplus project, which was almost all done by email including the design offsets transferred electronically. I suppose a number of you weren't born then.
9600 modem was the slowest I ever had. Fine for email.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 14 at 3:45am
Originally posted by JimC

And if you publish measurements and tolerances everyone will start measuring their boats, there will be rumours going round about which are the best numbers, and yo'll get hassle with people rejecting boats that are particularly far off the numbers.

With all this talk, I'm going to start paying more attention to mast rake and hull weight. The only thing that will stop me is if the UKLA or RYA (or even the ILCA) convince me there is no point. Not sure they can.

Speaking plainly, the risk of getting it wrong means not qualifying due to the equipment. (I realise that I am an outside chance at qualifying for the big time.)

Another forum just published the weight and mast rake of Lasers - not sure if they are the 'ideal'. Seems like the source was an advert in a 12 year old North American Laser Class magazine. "minimum
weight at 130 lbs. The mast rake is spot on at 12’ 6.5 inches." Seems like as good a place any to start.

Seems that those in the know already have a good idea of what is a good rake and weight, why should the information just be in the hands of a select few? I thought the idea was to have a level playing field.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 14 at 7:21am
In your day Clive, you dreamed of something as fast as the royal mail 2nd class service.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 14 at 9:12am
Interesting discussion re the EPS & 300, I can't say I'd even compare the two coming from a latter day more objective view. Sailed well, the 300 is in another league performance wise on the lake, but that's the key, sailed well, and although a young guy clearly gifted in the art having sailed since the womb, he still does get into pickles in that thing, which is hardly surprising in my view it is probably the single most extreme single hander out there so I can beat him unless it's quite light and he doesn't fall over.
The EPS however whilst not quite as extreme does have a threshold beyond which one has a high likelihood of extreme humidity, I wouldn't say it was that 'complex' to set up unless I've missed something but it is equally comfortable more in a 2-3 than a 3-4 and on the sea? Nobody has ever seriously stuck a 300 on our water the couple of times its been tried have required lots of hands to pick up the bits, the EPS however is not as bad a sea boat as it appears with those low slung wings, interesting comparison though bizarre as it comes across.
I can see Laser sailors being drawn to an EPS, but I would have thought Phantom or Blaze sailors would more look toward the 300 as a step up or a walk on the wild side until they realised it's a waste of effort sailing something that extreme that narrows your weather and water options so dramatically, not a 'nice' boat by any measure.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 14 at 9:20am
Oh and the internet? We first heard about the 'World Wide Web' in 93 with a demonstration by Mistral who were showcasing it as a potential brochure free future. I also recall doing a dealer introduction to websites with the assistance of Bill Dawes of Boards Mag up at Grafham around 94-5, email via compuserve or aol had been around almost as long as i can recall having a laptop and spreadsheets, late eighties would it have been?

I hate to think of the thousands I've wasted in internet costs, not to mention the man hours lost to this sort of bulletin board bollox, it's an illness, there is no cure.

Edited by iGRF - 04 Dec 14 at 9:21am
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