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Nice new Laser for Christmas
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nice new Laser for Christmas
    Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 8:54am

Originally posted by Noah

Originally posted by Null

 

If in fact it's not true, then surely their ad is in breach of some advertising guidelines?

 

But the advert doesn't state what it is lighter than, nor by how much...

Regardless of that they are actually insinuating that it is lighter than 'Other' New Lasers. The ad is littered with breaches of the CAP advertising code:

"

3.1

Marketing communications must not materially mislead or be likely to do so.

3.2

Obvious exaggerations (“puffery”) and claims that the average consumer who sees the marketing communication is unlikely to take literally are allowed provided they do not materially mislead.

3.3

Marketing communications must not mislead the consumer by omitting material information. They must not mislead by hiding material information or presenting it in an unclear, unintelligible, ambiguous or untimely manner.

"

Or maybe, just maybe they are right and Laser sailing is not as 'One design' As we all thought.....

I would personally plump that the ad is the BS and UKLA or whomever manages the Laser class need to be all over this sh*t!!!

I am sure there are tolerances within Lasers (i am positive) But this ad really does ake sailing look like a joke!
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L123456 View Drop Down
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Posts: 500 		Post Options Post Options   Quote L123456 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 8:40am
Originally posted by ds2

Originally posted by L123456


Originally posted by Bruce

Advertising lighter weight and differences in mast rake is a BIG concern, and maybe the UKLA should declare the boats sold as that way as not legal because they are against the spirit of the Laser class.

Lighter weight & special mast rake ... WTF is going on here ....
This is completely against what Laser sailing is all about ... is this for real?


I am afraid it is.

So are these "super" lasers class legal?

How much lighter are they?

What does ukla say about this?
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 7:16am
Chris249 I see you say in your post laser used to supply competitors with boats for worlds etc.  I think the word 'used'. I think at the last worlds in Santander competitors supplied their own kit......
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 6:50am
I am told by a reliable source that if you follow the trial of companies for Sailboats and LP they all lead back to the same person....
Paul
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Bruce View Drop Down
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Posts: 13 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 2:06am
The biggest difference 5 mm of mast height etc makes is between the ears. 

BUT, if you are sailing that way, with a boat you know is lighter, or a mast rake that is optimum, then you are missing the bigger picture of what Laser racing can be.

I love being in a class where the difference in boat speed is minimal. I jumped in a crappy old club boat recently and had two guns from two over a pretty new boats. Have sailed in the northern and southern hemisphere and have not been aware of any cheating.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 12:53am
When I talk of 'top guys' I'm referring to International Level sailors, I could name lots and their 'cheats' from tuned battens to special centreboards, being the supplier of kit to events its amazing what you find out on inspection of it at the return and nothing I've seen since i've experienced the full joys of dinghy sailing gives me any thought that what went on, probably still going on, in the International Windsurfing Race scene, was confined to that specific arena when it comes to specially 'tuned' One Design gear. We Brits didn't do anything like what the rest of the world did including some of you cheating b**tards from down under, so don't come the innocent with me.

Edited by iGRF - 01 Dec 14 at 12:55am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 14 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by iGRF

So, getting back to the bit where I told you all long ago, there is no such thing as 'fair' One Design racing and the top guys that win, usually have some form of 'cheat' going on. It's been that way ever since the Windsurfer Class in my world, and we knew back then the Laser world was the same.

I can't believe it has been so publicly admitted for profit, but there you go, you can tell me now.

iGRF was right all along.

There are some cheats, but the idea that winners at national level are usually cheats is completely bollox in my experience. And since in some top SMODs the winners don't even get to use their own gear at the major world events, there's no room to cheat.

In one major SMOD, for example, each team swaps boats between every heat, or every couple of heats. This is done on the beach, in the full view of every other competitor. There is simply no way of modifying or replacing the gear that wouldn't involve some very tricky conjuring tricks under the eyes of the rest of the fleet.

At the Laser worlds you used to be allocated a boat that you shared with another competitor, sailing in the other group. You'd have to modify or replace gear that someone else was keeping an eagle eye on, and do it in the same dinghy park that your fellow competitors are using.

After some 45 years of SMOD world titles, there's have been plenty of chances to this sort of cheating to be exposed (because of course all your competitors have motivation and opportunity to expose such cheating) and I think I may have heard or one or two instances, sometime back in the '70s or something.

So if this is going on, either just about no one has ever made the tiniest error in the difficult business of cheating, or they have made such an error but no one in the fleet has noticed and bothered to protest. The idea therefore fails the common sense test.
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 14 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

A few years ago I bought a Laser mast top-section 2nd-hand from a well known Olympic Squad type, and it had been marked with the weight of the item.
I have heard stories (and they are only rumour and conjecture) that the top squad types will have different spars that are at opposite ends of the positioning tolerances of the collar to allow for a tall or short mast, dependent on conditions.

It's easy to understand why you may want to know the mast weight if you're doing a full-on campaign. After the gear has been allocated for the Games or worlds, well-resourced efforts may weigh the spars and measure the draft on the sails. One could then work out how the allocated rig would compare to a baseline one has been working with, and therefore how to re-calibrate the settings to get the desired sail shape. Of course, this is very different from the rumours that some people have access to special gear.

Having different spars for different conditions is plausible but one wonders whether it could backfire, since at worlds and nationals the spars, like the foils and sails, are all signed off so you can't change gear in a series.

It would also be interesting to work out exactly how much difference 5mm or so in mast height could possibly make; yep, maybe if you lose 0.5 seconds up a beat due to having the 'wrong' spar for that conditions you may not make a vital cross, but how many squaddies lose much more in less-than-perfect tacks, or tacking 5m out of the perfect spot, or easing up from straight-legging for 5 seconds, or any of the other ways to slow down. And across a full range of conditions how much will you gain with a taller or shorter mast?
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 14 at 10:38pm
So, getting back to the bit where I told you all long ago, there is no such thing as 'fair' One Design racing and the top guys that win, usually have some form of 'cheat' going on. It's been that way ever since the Windsurfer Class in my world, and we knew back then the Laser world was the same.

I can't believe it has been so publicly admitted for profit, but there you go, you can tell me now.

iGRF was right all along.

Edited by iGRF - 30 Nov 14 at 10:39pm
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ds2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 30 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ds2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 14 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by L123456


Originally posted by Bruce

Advertising lighter weight and differences in mast rake is a BIG concern, and maybe the UKLA should declare the boats sold as that way as not legal because they are against the spirit of the Laser class.

Lighter weight & special mast rake ... WTF is going on here ....
This is completely against what Laser sailing is all about ... is this for real?


I am afraid it is.
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