New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Nice new Laser for Christmas
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Nice new Laser for Christmas

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 20>
Author
sandgrounder View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 01 Apr 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 220
Post Options Post Options   Quote sandgrounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nice new Laser for Christmas
    Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

This is completely bizarre; one sort of hopes that buyers of both normal and Xmas Lasers could lodge complaints of false representation, since the "normal boat buyers" apparently didn't get the completely competitive and equal hulls they want and the "Xmas buyers" are unlikely to get the light hulls they are promised.
I do find the idea that any one rake will be "optimum" is a bit odd; it must vary according to sailor skill, weight, height, etc as well as the sailing conditions one is aiming to peak at. What are the tolerances like in the UK Lasers? Down here I think it's been accepted for many years that there is effectively no difference in rake between Lasers.


During a trip to Torbole (Garda) earlier this year I observed Robert Scheidt training in a new Australian built boat. I was informed that this preference was due to mast rake. I was also informed by a multiple World Championship winning coach that the factory in Australia measures the rake of every boat and supplies optimum rake to National team members as required. Similarly weight / stiffness of top sections are measured. Don't know if it's fact or fiction but the story must have some basis.
Back to Top
GarethT View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 714
Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 8:57pm
I'm sure all the top guys in all the smod classes (incl RS:X) do that.

Wherever boats are built to tolerances there will always be light ones and heavy ones. If the manufacturers can consistently make light ones now, perhaps there's a case for narrowing the tolerances.
Back to Top
maxibuddah View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 09
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1760
Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:24pm
I jus wish that I was good enough to benefit from all of the enhancements. 
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
Back to Top
Medway Maniac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2788
Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:59pm
I must admit, I thought the ad was a refreshing acknowledgement of the reality of top-flight Laser racing. People know there are good 'uns and bad 'uns.  I seem to recall from the build spec that the original L3k SMOD had a hull weight tolerance of +-10%, that's about 15kg between lightest and heaviest possible, even if most were well within that!  Presumably the Laser has a similar tolerance, suited to the qualifications/experience of many of the operatives who lay them up.

Mast rake and differences between sails is clearly a well known issue within the class, and would be a concern for any serious-racing buyer of a new Laser.  So the ad. is apt to quell their fears and lure them in - surely a prime requirement of advertising.

You'd have to be well into the class to know why it was a bad idea to have black bits on the new grp foils, but I guess there must be a theory.  It is human nature to try to maximise possibilities, and the tighter the rules and smaller the possibilities, the more trivial will be the things considered (like promotion in the Civil Service :-)
Back to Top
kneewrecker View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1586
Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

This is completely bizarre; one sort of hopes that buyers of both normal and Xmas Lasers could lodge complaints of false representation, since the "normal boat buyers" apparently didn't get the completely competitive and equal hulls they want and the "Xmas buyers" are unlikely to get the light hulls they are promised.
I do find the idea that any one rake will be "optimum" is a bit odd; it must vary according to sailor skill, weight, height, etc as well as the sailing conditions one is aiming to peak at. What are the tolerances like in the UK Lasers? Down here I think it's been accepted for many years that there is effectively no difference in rake between Lasers.


Precisely - as if the laser needs any help to undermine itself right now, why not sh*t all over the one single indestructible positive attribute the class, sailors and builders had? For what, Black Friday - those folks at sailboats are knobs.

Edited by kneewrecker - 28 Nov 14 at 11:05pm
Back to Top
Medway Maniac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2788
Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

 why not sh*t all over the one single indestructible positive attribute the class, sailors and builders had?

Given the likely weight tolerances, I think the alleged positive of many SMODS - equal racing - is a myth in any case.  Better be realistic, tacitly acknowledge that and offer a solution.
Back to Top
Bruce View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 28 Apr 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13
Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:58pm
Geez. So much for SMOD. Wondering who acts as bobby for these clowns? The ILCA? Jeff Martin? Hoping that this is a runaway dealer and not LaserPerformance's latest antic to stir the pot. Probably has a plaque so is official, but this begs an orgy of questions.
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 14 at 9:39am
1- My former arch rival was a three-time world Masters champ and the class technical manager. If anyone had access to good gear, it would be him - but not only did I never see any sign he had good stuff, but he was willing to lend me a boom which I bent, indicating that he did not have any particularly good stuff.

2- I asked Tom Slingsby (who I knew as an up and coming kid when I was doing Lasers seriously) whether he picked gear at the factory as claimed. He said directly that he was not allowed into the factory to do any such thing. I used to train with Tom's coach and be on a team with his former coach and that experience showed no indication that they are into 'special' gear.

3- I'm buying a sail from another Laser Olympian who I know; this sailor shows zero signs of being concerned about 'special gear'. 

4- As Olympians have said, the last thing you want to do is to sail a "special", since the gear at Worlds and Olympics are supplied. Therefore top sailors must learn to sail 'around' any minor tolerance issues; getting used to one 'special' tolerances could kill you when you get to the big time and have to sail supplied gear. It's not as if Tom really needs the points to get selection for the Games! 

5- Yes, the Australian Institute of Sport has measured Laser spars but basically, heavier = stiffer but for the reasons given above, this knowledge is not used to get 'better' masts for Olympians - source, my old PhD supervisor who was the head scientist at the AIS.

6- Yes, years ago some top class sailor blamed poor tolerances in charter gear for a poor performances at world titles (and knowing the guy a bit, I believe him) but this seems to have been solved.

7- Info at the last class meeting I attended was that tolerances are very tight. Figures were given and they sounded good, but I've forgotten them. The guy who gave the figures then got stuck into the builders for the current contract debacle, indicating that he was not kowtowing to them.

8- Yes, in other SMODs (including one Olympic class) I've sailed there were production changes that meant that some older hulls were better than newer hulls, according to Olympic coaches and medallists. But those were due to known and identified production changes. 

9- The two guys I know who worked on the Aussie Laser production line are both qualified boatbuilders and national champions in other classes. Yes, such guys are likely to be more careful when they build a boat than other people. One of them did Lasers but had no success and would blame his old gear but never mentioned any 'specials' for other people, and he was a former drinking buddy.

10- You can spend one hell of a lot more to get an advantage on a non-SMOD - look at the cost of Shirley Robertson's Europe mast for the 2000 Games (20,000 pounds according to a detailed article in Seahorse, IIRC). Even if the Laser rumours are true, getting a special Laser would be a lot cheaper than getting a special Europe!

11 - Re "Don't know if it's fact or fiction but the story must have some basis." Sorry, but why do stories have to have some basis? Were there really WMDs in Iraq?  Are vapourtrails from jets really chemical mind control weapons ? Is Obama really a reptile alien? There are stories about all these things but does that mean they have some basis? Big smile

Besides that, if stories have to have some basis, then what happens in this case where I have given (true) stories that directly contradict the ones you have been told?  

12- Yep, some SMODs have wide weight tolerances (as we found out in Tasars when we repeatedly went from 1 to 5 at the nationals on the runs, before we found out that our boat was 73.5kg and the lightest boat was about 59kg!) but that doesn't mean that Lasers do. By the way, Tasars now have a minimum weight and just about every well cared for boat seems to be competitive.

In a non-Olympic SMOD I have bought two training sets directly from the former world champs and neither of them appear to be anything unusual. In the other SMOD I sail, the most successful individual kit at nationals over the past 10 years was bought second-hand and is good old stuff but nothing special.

13- Schiedt may well choose some builder's boats because they have a more consistent mast rake and that allows him to minimise variables, but that does not mean that anyone gets access to special boats from that builder.




Edited by Chris 249 - 29 Nov 14 at 10:03am
Back to Top
Vronny View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 31 Mar 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 121
Post Options Post Options   Quote Vronny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 14 at 9:59am
Aha, Chris 249, that just shows the Australian Lasers and their kit is better than the European stuff  Wink 
I wonder where Sailboats get their Lasers from. If they're lighter, does that mean they're lighter than Lasers from other stockists? It's hard to imagine Performance Laser in the UK allowing the guys from Sailboats to weigh the boats in the factory and only pick the light ones. Or are Sailboats getting their boats from outside UK/Europe?
Back to Top
Vronny View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 31 Mar 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 121
Post Options Post Options   Quote Vronny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 14 at 10:03am
Chris 249 made the point that Olympians don't want to sail 'special' lasers. They need to be able to sail well in any laser they're presented with. But that's not so true for people desperate to get into the squads and funding programmes. I bet the parent of an ambitious teenager would be keen to find the fastest kit. If there is such thing as fast laser kit of course!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 20>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy