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    Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 10:48am
SImon, I think you are being a little unfair.  James ordered a Zero and cancelled it as he had decided to move house.   He does not support us as a class.  Read his posts  he makes no comparrison to the Zero.  He built the website, as a favour for friends.  Which is why he also comments on our FB group.  James is a friend to several people in our fleet.
 
Lets not forget this is a public forum, where people are allowed to ask questions make statements.  We  ( Both Zero and Aero) have to take the rough with the smooth if we (as members) decide to use this media to promote what we are doing.  Lets not forget these are threads started by owners or owners with orders in.  Not by the manufacturers of retailers. 
 
I am confident that if the Zero class had had something like that written about them James would be all over it.  Despite how people like to draw conclussions its nothing personal its just someones opinion.  James is entitled to ak questions and make statements as much as you are.  If you dont like it dont respond is the simple way to look at it.  There are plenty of people on here with deeper agendas than James...Trust me!
 
 
Now i promised myself that i wouldnt get involved with inter class t*t for tat any more.  RS have to some degree responded to criticism (I notice Pete edited one of his comments which was a bit of a dig at another class...Again as per your advice i am sure he has sailed both?) IF the numbers sold are true RS have nothing to worry about and frankly 20 forum users posting within a 44 page forum thread has little impact.  But even now there are still very few posting on the facebook page or here. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Rupert

I think KW was being ironic at that point - the "dramatic rescue"  

clearly I did need the speech marks for everyone else Rupert....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 10:37am
Simon - I don't know how getting in the boat would validate whether I heard something through the grapevine or not, add a little logic there would you?  

I've been quite clear it's a matter of conjecture, and the additional criticism in this direction not something I'd intended to share until popped in a corner; but you seem to be spinning and filtering my responses to suit your own agenda.  I have no debate with you on this- it's a dinghy, I reckon it would be reasonably easy to recover from a capsize, and like you, it would be something I would test for myself if I were demo'ing the boat.  

 I cannot (nor would I want to) speak for the majority of the old duffers who buy new boats, but given the feedback on the proper course blog, they'd be bat-sh*t crazy not to at least try a capsize recovery before forking out for the balance on their orders, especially if they are looking at the larger rig combo.  But hey, it's their money and one thing's for sure, RS are good company, they are providing training and worst case scenario, I'm sure they've got good public liability insurance.

And no, I doubt there would too many people I know through sailing that would be surprised to know I have always hankered after another 300 at some point.  It's one of the few boats I've regretted selling...  I felt the D-Zero shares some of the characteristics of the 300, but with a lot more stability and a little less power.  The only reason I didn't pull the trigger on a new 300 was because I heard about the Aero.... I have the email trail for the enquiry to RS if you really don't believe me, long before Holman et al. peaked my interest with his announcement of something I think seems infinitely superior.  (That's an opinion by the way, you're welcome to form a different one.)  

  




Edited by kneewrecker - 26 Nov 14 at 10:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 10:32am
I think KW was being ironic at that point - the "dramatic rescue" thing being used in every story of capsized dinghies from Daily Mail to RNLI magazine when someone has got a little cold and tired and been picked up by the safety boat which has been waiting around for that exact eventuality. But that isn't very dramatic or much of a rescue, so makes for a poor tale.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 10:14am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

Originally posted by craiggo

I really don't think its an issue. Jimbo I do wonder if you really mean to keep putting the Aero down as a result of having your fingers burnt on the 100 or whether you think in some way your opinion on the matter is the gospel on this boat and that you feel aggrieved that more people aren't siding with you.

From my point of view, how the boat recovers from a capsize is of little interest as I don't intend to be in that position. Boats blowing away from people is nothing new, after all most catamarans can go at a fair old lick on their sides but people still buy and sail them. My own 700 is an arse to right from a capsize but I judge and select my boats based on how they sail and not on what they do when it goes wrong. I recently was reminded of how much water a Graduate takes onboard in a capsize, and it took me a lap of a race to empty it. Did this put me off? No, it just makes me want to sort my big wind boat handling out so that I dont do it again.

Please can we stop the Aero bashing, its getting boring!

If you'd read what I wrote, rather than jump in with some bullsh*t pop-psychology, you'd see I'd agreed with you.  I've even linked to the RS videos on the source material, and stated on here and SA that I think it wouldn't be that hard to get in from a capsize- it's just a dinghy after all.  It will require some changes in technique, something Pete appears to be addressing, something I thought was blindingly obvious- as I once did myself when challenged by the very same accusation for a boat I wanted to see succeed.

I simply was correcting Simon's subtle re-positioning that this 'capsize issue' was raised by someone who hadn't sailed the boat, when indeed the guy only wrote about his experience from sailing it.  Fair play to him.

There are other similar rumours, none of which anyone's felt compelled to share or highlight here, but if you want it, here it goes.....  



Apparently there was another dramatic rescue at Bowmoor at the weekend.  (Do I need to add the speech marks to ensure the level of irony is observable?)  But some of us who are involved in a sister sport would be forgiven for taking a second moment to re-assess assumed risks, and taking safety and our abilities for granted after this weekend.

As you took it down a personal line, from my own point of view, I'll discuss any boat or aspect of sailing I'm interested in.  I certainly don't expect anyone to take my opinions on such things as gospel, nor indeed do I expect my posts to have the journalistic rigour of a professional publication.  They are however my own opinions, formed on what's avialable- material put out there to help me make a conscious consumer decision.  I am not swayed by the prospect of a paid gig in return, or sycophantic based on brand loyalty or some such crap others seem to rely on.  And FWIW, I've long been at peace with the fact that my views are often in the minority when it comes to sailing stuff, (thank the lord) and that my own opinions may change with time, experience and as requirements shift to meet a different set of needs and wants from my sailing leisure time.  

The Aero- I'm told, is aimed to cater for sailors of my weight and calibre.  A 90kg+ club level sailor.   That's interesting- we're pretty limited in choice once you factor in light wind prevailing conditions.  If you must know, I stalled my next boat purchase (a planned RS300 once I'd seen the quote for a Finn) to find out more about this very boat.

Nothing so far has convinced me it's anything but a kids and light weight adult's boat at best, and for that it looks great- far better than a Laser 4.7 and Radial.

Awaiting more info....."


A planned 300.... unless there has been an epiphany, the class you have been so strongly supporting and set up the association website for might be a bit surprised to hear thats always been the plan.

And good luck with trying to get into a 300 over the side.

 "Heard through the grapevine of another dramatic rescue...." FFS. Get in the boat and sail it then you might be in a position to make these statement. People get tired and picked up all the time by rescue boats from all sorts of dinghies. 

We spent over an hour in 15 plus knots and waves doing capsize drills with a sailor who is mid 60's and 90kgs. Even when he was completely knackered, he could still easily get in over the stern. 

Perhaps we should look at all the other singlehanded dinghies and demand videos of them being righted and boarded from capsized and fully inverted?









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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 9:35am
Unless you have a rescue boat securing the nose, I found going in over the back in the 100 just as impossible for the very reason MM highlights, as soon as you weight one side or the other of the stern it bears off and capsizes .
I didn't get to capsize the Aero, was going to give it a go when we get our demo, but neither did I capsize the zero either which has equal issue in my mind because of the lack of grabby bits, but it didn't stop me considering either of them, only the Yardstick decision put paid to that.
But to be fair to RS they were the only ones that gave me a pre sail instructional briefing on how to get back in before I went out, which I immediately forgot since it wasn't that breezy at that point, but went something along the lines of making sure you launched yourself into the middle of the boat rather than hanging on the side once your up there, I guess I'd have had to employ the technique I learned in the 100 of getting the rig to windward pinned down by the wind then dive into the middle as the wind lifted it up.

On a positive note I hadn't seen This it's a cool way to check the boat out..

Edited by iGRF - 26 Nov 14 at 9:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 9:06am
I've tried to avoid going over the transom after my sea-anchor body at the stern caused the boat to bear away and start sailing downwind, then capsize again.

That was undoubtedly a boat with shrouds, and I guess the boom can happily go out further on an unstayed rig (provided the mainsheet isn't cleated), so it's probably not an issue for the Aero/Zero/Laser. But I don't think rear-entry is a solution for all boats, so maybe the RYA shies away from teaching it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 7:16am
Shame this isn't still the RSpeculation thread, after all that is all it is, I heard on the grapevine some guy needed to be taken ashore after spending 10 minutes fighting a capsized Aero and hypothermia... But please, that story could be utter b**locks or at the very least rather embellished, missing maybe a gear failure aspect or any other number of variables which would exonerate the boat's design.

Given this is the second dinghy launched with this criticism in the last decade, I'd be asking questions about why more sailors don't seemingly know about Plan B - going over the transom. I was doing that in my Oppy in heavy wind in the 80's- genuinely, is this method no longer on an RYA syllabus or something- to me it's second nature... If fingers need pointing somewhere, then it's at the training and capsize drills, not RS.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 12:06am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

Apparently there was another dramatic rescue at Bowmoor at the weekend. 

What happened?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 14 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by craiggo

I really don't think its an issue. Jimbo I do wonder if you really mean to keep putting the Aero down as a result of having your fingers burnt on the 100 or whether you think in some way your opinion on the matter is the gospel on this boat and that you feel aggrieved that more people aren't siding with you.

From my point of view, how the boat recovers from a capsize is of little interest as I don't intend to be in that position. Boats blowing away from people is nothing new, after all most catamarans can go at a fair old lick on their sides but people still buy and sail them. My own 700 is an arse to right from a capsize but I judge and select my boats based on how they sail and not on what they do when it goes wrong. I recently was reminded of how much water a Graduate takes onboard in a capsize, and it took me a lap of a race to empty it. Did this put me off? No, it just makes me want to sort my big wind boat handling out so that I dont do it again.

Please can we stop the Aero bashing, its getting boring!

If you'd read what I wrote, rather than jump in with some bullsh*t pop-psychology, you'd see I'd agreed with you.  I've even linked to the RS videos on the source material, and stated on here and SA that I think it wouldn't be that hard to get in from a capsize- it's just a dinghy after all.  It will require some changes in technique, something Pete appears to be addressing, something I thought was blindingly obvious- as I once did myself when challenged by the very same accusation for a boat I wanted to see succeed.

I simply was correcting Simon's subtle re-positioning that this 'capsize issue' was raised by someone who hadn't sailed the boat, when indeed the guy only wrote about his experience from sailing it.  Fair play to him.

There are other similar rumours, none of which anyone's felt compelled to share or highlight here, but if you want it, here it goes.....  



Apparently there was another dramatic rescue at Bowmoor at the weekend.  (Do I need to add the speech marks to ensure the level of irony is observable?)  But some of us who are involved in a sister sport would be forgiven for taking a second moment to re-assess assumed risks, and taking safety and our abilities for granted after this weekend.

As you took it down a personal line, from my own point of view, I'll discuss any boat or aspect of sailing I'm interested in.  I certainly don't expect anyone to take my opinions on such things as gospel, nor indeed do I expect my posts to have the journalistic rigour of a professional publication.  They are however my own opinions, formed on what's avialable- material put out there to help me make a conscious consumer decision.  I am not swayed by the prospect of a paid gig in return, or sycophantic based on brand loyalty or some such crap others seem to rely on.  And FWIW, I've long been at peace with the fact that my views are often in the minority when it comes to sailing stuff, (thank the lord) and that my own opinions may change with time, experience and as requirements shift to meet a different set of needs and wants from my sailing leisure time.  

The Aero- I'm told, is aimed to cater for sailors of my weight and calibre.  A 90kg+ club level sailor.   That's interesting- we're pretty limited in choice once you factor in light wind prevailing conditions.  If you must know, I stalled my next boat purchase (a planned RS300 once I'd seen the quote for a Finn) to find out more about this very boat.

Nothing so far has convinced me it's anything but a kids and light weight adult's boat at best, and for that it looks great- far better than a Laser 4.7 and Radial.

Awaiting more info.....








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