The Tasar v the Icon

The problem with PN/EN 'discussion' is that those with a particular argument to make grab at anything that 'supports' their view or pre-judgement ... even right down to a single race result.

The Sailjuice results would possibly be the most reliable - this is my argument anyway.  They have plenty of results over three winters with (hopefully goodish!) Icons pitted against worthy examples of boats and crew from a wide variety of classes.  Two years ago they gave it 990 ... then last winter they upped it to 1000 ....

More recently they took it back down to 979 ... Why ?  Did the more recent results justify it ? Well the bottom line is their system simply looks at any available  EN/PN and applies an adjustment based on their own results and experience.   And now the RYA has released an EN.    Before an EN was made available by the RYA  the GL number was 990/1000 .. based on their assessmsnt in open competition.  After the publication of the EN it dropped by 21  points... note this was not anywhere near the EN of 969.    There are other class examples out there of course.

What we need is a system ANY system that simply rejects the 75%+ of crap class results (poor boats with 'occasional' crews wafting around the backwaters of the UK dinghy scene.   Get rid of this distorting sub-surface part of the iceberg that makes a mockery of the system - ONLY measure good 'front-of-fleet' examples in all classes.  The current system is often assumed to look at 'class potential' ..  wrongly.  It is not a level playing field at all if you include all the 'old clunkers' out there from every class.    If it means the amount of considered 'data' is reduced so what ?  It might be the best thing to do !

I do not think there is any intentional bias .. but 'the system' as currently run has simple been outgrown.  It is heavily loaded agianst some classes particulary the new ones who do not enjoy the benefit of that vast raft of distoring clunkers that make up a significant proportion of the returns.  We are told anything else would be more 'difficult' (translation: time/money) so maybe best to leave well alone.  Is this right ?

Mike L.

PS - Yes - Yes - it is another PN point being made - if you don't like it then don't grab at individual race results to make your own points !  ... why not  help lobby for something a bit better yourselves.  This is a dinghy development forum - all here should all want 'better' surely ..... 

Originally posted by iGRF   WL Course?

Originally posted by blaze720 PS - Yes - Yes - it is another PN point being made - if you don't like it then don't grab at individual race results to make your own points !  ... why not  help lobby for something a bit better yourselves.  This is a dinghy development forum - all here should all want 'better' surely .....

Originally posted by kneewrecker Originally posted by blaze720 <span style="line-height: 1.4;">PS - Yes - Yes - it is another PN point being made - if you don't like it then don't grab at individual race results to make your own points !  ... why not  help lobby for something a bit better yourselves.  This is a dinghy development forum - all here should all want 'better' surely .....  </span> Define better?  You'd reject 75% of the 'crap people' from your spectrum, when frankly those 75% are exactly whom the PY system should be aiming for.  Everyday club sailors, sailing what they want and enjoying some competitive attributes to it to give it some meaning and structure. I re-itterate, in my opinon, the PY system has never been in better health. Anyone in the top echelons would see handicap racing as 'training only', 'a bit of fun with mates' or, in some cases, an opportunity to showcase the wares of his/her employer.  I don't think any 'rockstar types'  expect, nor manipulate the system to their advantage- just check out Charlie Cumbley's very healthy attitude to sailing his OK at the SJ series on the OK forum.  In my opinion, there's only a very small minority of sailors who actually want handicap racing to be as serious as one design or class racing.    Most sailors accept it for it is, and choose to either participate or not.  Frankly it's not the 75% general sailing public's fault you can't sell enough Icon units to offer any decent fleet racing in the Icon, therefore are trying to fit the PY system around it. As Jim says- why ruin it for the majority, just to suit a small, very small, minority.

Never ever thought I would say this but as one of the people in that 75%, James you are spot on. Concise and to the point

Edited by Blue One - 13 Oct 14 at 12:17pm

Originally posted by Rupert Originally posted by blaze720 I thought a couple of cages could do with a proper rattle on a dull morning ! (GRF not withstanding) Me too - seems to have worked - though GRF was pretty measured.

GRF is keeping his powder dry pending a night with BAS at our club, we've rigged a ducking stool and a gallows and his 'task Jim if he chooses to accept it', in order to avoid them, is to convince us their system is anything other than that which we know it to be.

A puddle punters plaything.