The Tasar v the Icon

Originally posted by iGRF   WL Course?

The problem with PN/EN 'discussion' is that those with a particular argument to make grab at anything that 'supports' their view or pre-judgement ... even right down to a single race result.

The Sailjuice results would possibly be the most reliable - this is my argument anyway.  They have plenty of results over three winters with (hopefully goodish!) Icons pitted against worthy examples of boats and crew from a wide variety of classes.  Two years ago they gave it 990 ... then last winter they upped it to 1000 ....

More recently they took it back down to 979 ... Why ?  Did the more recent results justify it ? Well the bottom line is their system simply looks at any available  EN/PN and applies an adjustment based on their own results and experience.   And now the RYA has released an EN.    Before an EN was made available by the RYA  the GL number was 990/1000 .. based on their assessmsnt in open competition.  After the publication of the EN it dropped by 21  points... note this was not anywhere near the EN of 969.    There are other class examples out there of course.

What we need is a system ANY system that simply rejects the 75%+ of crap class results (poor boats with 'occasional' crews wafting around the backwaters of the UK dinghy scene.   Get rid of this distorting sub-surface part of the iceberg that makes a mockery of the system - ONLY measure good 'front-of-fleet' examples in all classes.  The current system is often assumed to look at 'class potential' ..  wrongly.  It is not a level playing field at all if you include all the 'old clunkers' out there from every class.    If it means the amount of considered 'data' is reduced so what ?  It might be the best thing to do !

I do not think there is any intentional bias .. but 'the system' as currently run has simple been outgrown.  It is heavily loaded agianst some classes particulary the new ones who do not enjoy the benefit of that vast raft of distoring clunkers that make up a significant proportion of the returns.  We are told anything else would be more 'difficult' (translation: time/money) so maybe best to leave well alone.  Is this right ?

Mike L.

PS - Yes - Yes - it is another PN point being made - if you don't like it then don't grab at individual race results to make your own points !  ... why not  help lobby for something a bit better yourselves.  This is a dinghy development forum - all here should all want 'better' surely ..... 

Originally posted by Chris 249 Originally posted by iGRF  it's certainly not as quick as a Contender, we just held it on one reach and we can keep it at bay in light weather, but once the wire is engaged upwind, sorry - game over. Funny thing is that down here the Contender is rated just 0.75% (approx) quicker than a Tasar. I don't think that's fair, but oddly enough once we get off our puddle and down to the wider waters the Tasars normally beat the Contenders. Mind you, our local Tasars include two ex world champs, and while the Contenders are good they are nowhere near that level.

WL Course?

No Chance a Tasar would take a Contender on our water, especially if a Contender sailor is also OOD and sets a course with the wing mark a mile out and suitably tight on both legs..

Funny when I set the course they don't do so well with my big beats and deep angles with the wing mark not so far out, gives me a warm feeling them struggling to stay on the wire downhill and all the Assyms kite reaching all over them..

Edited by iGRF - 13 Oct 14 at 10:54am

Still only 10 or 15 points low, then, maybe, as opposed to the 50 that was being bandied about at first? There are many boats with the perception of being that far out (see OK thread), even with tons of returns.

Personally, I really, really hope it proves to be that sort of speed once the numbers are there to be crunched - it puts clear water between it and boats like the Albacore. If it really was 1020, then there would be many days that an Applecore, at what, 1060, would be able to beat it on the water. While that will still happen, maybe it will be rare. After all, isn't a simple, easy to sail, fast boat the holy grail?

Originally posted by Rupert Originally posted by iGRF we were all over the Merlin like a bad rash, the only area they clawed some of it back was downhill with their kite. Is that EN really so bad, then?

Yes it's definitely not a sub 970 boat, I'd say it's even steven with a Merlin, they have their moments we had ours, but ours were wind shift and course appropriate, we were only all over them because they couldn't use their kite. It was as usual at Hythe, a Contender course, with a Contender OOD and a Contender duly won. the Merlin got by us on handicap.

I'd say they should have given it 1000 as an EN then let it work down as better helms populated the fleet, as it is I suspect it'll settle 980 ish because of the high proportion of none kite suitable water that will inevitably populate the data, does anyone really thing it's faster than an RS400 on open water? Or a 470? it's certainly not as quick as a Contender, we just held it on one reach and we can keep it at bay in light weather, but once the wire is engaged upwind, sorry - game over.

It's actually very Phantom like in its performance, provided you have a Phantom sailor working hard. I'd also bet if Pete in his Blaze, raced Pete in his Icon once the wind was up, Pete in the Blaze would win, so work that one out... (This on the sea, obviously a different story inland, but then what happens inland dictates all our lives eh?

Edited by iGRF - 13 Oct 14 at 10:08am