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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by marke

MM - You can take into account potential if you can identify individual boats - and particularly if we can get a coarse skill factor rating added to each data point.  The problem is that this is hard to do for most clubs when submitting data - but I hope it is something the PYS can accommodate in the future.  For local club analysis it is pretty easy to do and we do it for our own local handicap adjustments.  Essentially you divide the performances into deciles and then compare the relative performance of the higher performing deciles.  It turns out that the highest performing decile has (surprisingly to me) more variation than the 2nd and 3rd, so we use the combined 2nd and 3rd decile to do the calculation.  Remember it doesn't matter which deciles you use as long as you compare the same deciles for all classes and use the ones towards the upper end (i.e. the most competent (and generally more consistent) sailors).

Mark
The problem with local adjustment is that it comes down to personal handicaps.  Thus, while the PYS scheme is currently recommending 980 for the V3k, it is recommending 1114 for the L3k, as against the official 1058. 
 
When the L3k was being raced by someone currently in a V3k, the PYS scheme was recommending 995 for the L3k - 109 points lower!

Like I said, committees tamper with PYs at their peril.

Sorry Marke, just fully (I think) understood your point - we (the committee) should be saying "that guy is 100 points better than the other one, we'll allow for that...".  I'm afraid that would take a considerably braver man than me, especially if we had to allocate individual skill factors to each member.

I do it, in fact, for pursuit racing, but it is kept totally opaque, buried in starting times that depend on boat PYs modified for the conditions, so that nobody is glorified and nobody shamed.
Wilsonian SC
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winging it View Drop Down
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:19pm
In training I will often adopt pursuit style racing giving the less able sailors a 'head start' so they get to epxerience starting in clear air and learn defensive tactics to stay ahead.  The more able sailor then has to learn fighting through the fleet.

Works really well, nobody complains, most people learn something.
the same, but different...

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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

IN hindsight- called it a completely different name.  

But then contacted all L2k sailors and say they would be welcome to participate in class events, grandfathered in, racing scratch, bottle of bubbly for the first 'old timer' at the Prize Giving.
In hindsight?   Here's the very first V3k racing the first weekend it appeared.  Looks like a different sail symbol to me...


And who "contacted all L3k [FTFY] owners..."?  The V3k was developed by the CA in conjunction with the builder, and the  CA was all L3k owners at the time.  Nobody was duped, everyone had input.

Other readers: sorry about this slanging match, but KW's remarks border on the libellous, and mud sticks if you don't wash it off.
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Posts: 211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote marke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:27pm
MM - actually turned out to be much easier than everyone thought.  It could be that we have a club where a lot of good sailors have sailed against one another for many years.  It also probably helped that we started doing this analysis several years before the RYA system changed and there were clear problems with the development classes and a few others which the racing sailors wanted fixing.  It also helped that we have a very detailed data collection system with all the data stored in a database so that we can analyse it easily (we have timings for every lap of every race for every competitor for more than 900 races all in a single database - and wind speed details for about half of them)

Over the years the RYA system has caught up with our local numbers (except for the Laser), and we are also pretty close to the GL numbers (which you would expect).  I think if you have someone who has raced lots of different classes at your club and outperforms his PY by no more than 1.2% in all the other classes, and then steps into a new class and outperforms by an average of 1.6%, you have some reasonable evidence that there might be a case for a local adjustment of the new class. . .  and so we do!

I do think people expect bandits and reverse-bandits(!) to appear now and again - they start to get disgruntled if nothing is seen to be done about it over a long period.
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:31pm
sounds similar to a brief foray into a squash league I did once- us newbies started each game with a 5 point advantage.

As you improved this advantage was reduced and most importantly, getting it reduced was something aspirational- unlike dinghy sailing, where rather than thinking- wow, my class has really upped its game to get this PY drop - it's time to moan and whinge and call everyone else a gerrymandering mollycoddler....    
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by kneewrecker

IN hindsight- called it a completely different name.  

But then contacted all L2k sailors and say they would be welcome to participate in class events, grandfathered in, racing scratch, bottle of bubbly for the first 'old timer' at the Prize Giving.
In hindsight?   Here's the very first V3k racing the first weekend it appeared.  Looks like a different sail symbol to me...


And who "contacted all L3k [FTFY] owners..."?  The V3k was developed by the CA in conjunction with the builder, and the  CA was all L3k owners at the time.  Nobody was duped, everyone had input.

Other readers: sorry about this slanging match, but KW's remarks border on the libellous, and mud sticks if you don't wash it off.

Border on libellous?  Do they?  This isn't about how the class communicated internally, nor how the business strategy and ethics of lipsticking a pig fitted in with the prospect of terminal illness amongst the Laser 3k customer base.  

It's about how the boat was perceived to the outside world.  

To me, and I imagine a good few other sailors, it was positioned as the same class, albeit 'new and improved' like a Tesco sandwich.  Yes, you dropped the Laser trademark, rather by obligation I imagine, but essentially you were positioning as the same class going forward.  

Asking Sailing Clubs to respect a class association or manufacturer's request to use and submit different results under different configurations or sail number cut-offs is one thing, actually getting them to do it is something completely different.    That is the biggest criticism of some newer boats to market who have, for whatever reason, not really thought out how their class rule intentions filter down to a local sailing club running PY racing.  

    
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:51pm
Ask them about the L3ks fitted out with all the V3ks running gear(bigger sails, gnav, bigger foils) and raced off the L3ks handicap, I very nearly did it as a gag to 'get' the merlin boys at their own game this summer.

Edited by iGRF - 07 Oct 14 at 12:52pm
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Ask them about the L3ks fitted out with all the V3ks running gear 

a rather inevitable consequence as bits get broken and replaced....  so confusion reigns, either for a commercial agenda or from lack of foresight.  

All in all- a great example of why a boat like the OK, which develops gradually over time under owner, and ultimately ISAF supervision, is a better proposition than ex-SMODS who don't mimic this and jump straight in with a sizeable adaptation and performance gain.  


Edited by kneewrecker - 07 Oct 14 at 12:56pm
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:55pm
Lots of 'traditional' classes have upgraded performance over the years - lighter weight, bigger/better sails - without making any effort to inform the public.

I've not heard any L3k owner raising the complaints you raise, despite having a legitimate interest.

Actually, the whole thing might have come off more smoothly if we'd told nobody outside the class anything.  Aside from the change in sail cloth on the mainsail (I prefer the new Dacron jib to the Mylar one pictured), outsiders wouldn't have noticed any change, which is the way it's worked with Wayfarer slot gaskets, and other classes' weight reductions.
Wilsonian SC
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac


I've not heard any L3k owner raising the complaints you raise, despite having a legitimate interest.



well then that's certainly to their credit- after all, it would be a bit pottle-kettle-black...  and I take you point, the other option was just do it, and accept the inevitable fall in PY over time as a result.  

I wonder if that has a bubble-bursting moment though....  I couldn't believe it when someone sent me a link to the ********* class association, where folks were genuinely going to sell their boats as their handicap had been dropped!!!!  


Edited by kneewrecker - 07 Oct 14 at 12:59pm
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