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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rise Of The Ok etc
    Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 5:20pm
Now lets think ... anyone know any 'Box Rule' classes ?  There are a few.  If it is literally just a 'box' you have no minimum weight for a start, no restictions on materials that can be exploited and so on....  so you then add extra rules and see what happens .. and you get a few 'ringers' developed and they look a bit tough for regular punters, possibly fragile and definately more expensive .. so you add a few more rules ... yes the road to repeated additonal limitation and restriction .. arguments and oh yes so many disagreements  ... all the way to 'hell on water' ! 

The nearest I know to producing a reasonable class at reasonable price with a good performance  is the NS14 .... but is that a pure box rule class ?  No.

Trying to force 'standard' SMODs into an abstract set of box rules - will kill most of them stone dead in a season .. with the emerging dominant one looking a bit sick a year later as somebody looks at the rules very carefully, develops a 'better' example and decides to sacrifice anything that does not produce a speed advantage in the hands of the best..   Sounds all too like the self-destructing board 'box' rules that produced boom ... and bust (or 'Honey I've shrunk the sport .... er somehow'. 

Shared meetings and organisation for several classes with broadly similar characteristics is about as close as you are ever likely to get and even then you will need to seperate them from a points perspective.   

Mike L.
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

I'm afraid I don't think the box rule would be great unless it wasn't very boxy - more tightly controlled.
Otherwise as someone sagely mentioned, the first boat designed explicitly to the rule would piss all over the current crop of boats, be double the cost, and have all kinds of sailing traits that meant that whilst capable tools in the hands of the top guys, they would be completely un suitable for the other 90% of punters that the current od boats satisfy nicely.
It'd be all like "ooh maybe I should get the latest xxx daggerboard which is 19mm thick not 21mm thick like the last one. It's £800 and I'll need to do £400 of work to fit it to the boat, but it'll be bound to make all the difference at the next box rule open!"

That's the beauty of homologation.  Would you launch a new class, just to win KW's box rule racing?  If you would then we'd need to up the qualifying number to something that guaranteed only reasonably-priced, popular classes could race.  I don't see someone building even as few as 25 identical boats of the sophistication and cost of Int. 14's just to get into box-rule racing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Would I be right in thinking that you really want to restrict your Box Rule Racing to one-designs, KW?
In which case you just need an homologation process to render boats eligible, like Group A in rallying and touring car racing.  Specify that, say 25 (or more) boats of a type have to have been built to qualify a class to race.  Builders to certify.
It's unlikely anyone would start a new class just to win your box-rule racing unless it really took off, in which case you grandfather existing classes and up the qualifying number to 100 or more...


No more the merrier- Fred in his shed, RS fan boy, new import from China, discerning Devoti customers... All welcome.

Then you just get what Jim described - effectively a new development class where Zeros, and Aeros would soon be obsolete.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 5:01pm
I'm afraid I don't think the box rule would be great unless it wasn't very boxy - more tightly controlled.
Otherwise as someone sagely mentioned, the first boat designed explicitly to the rule would piss all over the current crop of boats, be double the cost, and have all kinds of sailing traits that meant that whilst capable tools in the hands of the top guys, they would be completely un suitable for the other 90% of punters that the current od boats satisfy nicely.
It'd be all like "ooh maybe I should get the latest xxx daggerboard which is 19mm thick not 21mm thick like the last one. It's £800 and I'll need to do £400 of work to fit it to the boat, but it'll be bound to make all the difference at the next box rule open!"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by Rupert

So if you take your one design out of class (I dunno, maybe by putting a bigger rig on it), you couldn't then race it in the box ruleunless 24 other people did the same? So you couldn't update your uncompetitive boat in any way to make it keep up without making it ineligible to race. And if you allow that, where does update end and new design begin?
You'd also be ineligible to race in your class, so why would you do it anymore for box racing than you do normally?  You can't go sticking a different engine in your Group A M3 either.

I guess you could allow cheap, reversible changes that won't affect performance majorly, like freeing up sheeting requirements, enabling 2k sailors to fit an aft bridle (bliss!), 800 sailors likewise so that the crew could take the mainsheet.  

You could even allow Evo mods, sanctioned by the CA, which would have to be implemented on at least, say, 10 boats of an already eligible class. Maybe a new kite design, trial of a gnav, whatever.  That would be useful for the class to allow develpments to be tested in competition without disrupting class racing.  The Minisails could trial Lightning rigs. It'd need careful handling though!

To cover all classes, we're clearly going to need to define a number of boxes, just as they had capacity classes in Groups A and N.  In early days, all race together and extract the results for each 'box'.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 5:00pm
Rather than a box rule, how about a formula rule, like the simple formula I came up with for PY estimates?

1800 - (144 x Length) - (37 x Sail Area) + (1.2 x Weight) = 1050

It allows you to trade weight, length and sail area. Add in a few more constraints, like max beam 1.5m, carbon free hulls, no stays, or whatever and away you go.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Would I be right in thinking that you really want to restrict your Box Rule Racing to one-designs, KW?
In which case you just need an homologation process to render boats eligible, like Group A in rallying and touring car racing.  Specify that, say 25 (or more) boats of a type have to have been built to qualify a class to race.  Builders to certify.
It's unlikely anyone would start a new class just to win your box-rule racing unless it really took off, in which case you grandfather existing classes and up the qualifying number to 100 or more...


No more the merrier- Fred in his shed, RS fan boy, new import from China, discerning Devoti customers... All welcome.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 4:26pm
So if you take your one design out of class (I dunno, maybe by putting a bigger rig on it), you couldn't then race it in the box ruleunless 24 other people did the same? So you couldn't update your uncompetitive boat in any way to make it keep up without making it ineligible to race. And if you allow that, where does update end and new design begin?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 4:15pm
Would I be right in thinking that you really want to restrict your Box Rule Racing to one-designs, KW?

In which case you just need an homologation process to render boats eligible, like Group A in rallying and touring car racing.  Specify that, say 25 (or more) boats of a type have to have been built to qualify a class to race.  Builders to certify.

It's unlikely anyone would start a new class just to win your box-rule racing unless it really took off, in which case you grandfather existing classes and up the qualifying number to 100 or more...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by JimC

But as soon as you have a box rule both boats are immediately obsolescent because a boat to all the dimensions will be faster than either. And you also come up against the fundamental difference between the design of a box rule boat and a one design: When designing a one design your first priority is popularity - how well it will sail: the last few percents of peformance are well down the queue. By contrast with a box rule the priority must be performance, because if its not the fastest why bother. But I bet Dan H could comment more on the differences in the design process.


One of the growing fleets at Rutland is A-Class cats despite most of them being obsolete. I didn't see one Phantom 377 or Exocet D2 at the NWF- I did however see 100 'obselete' longboards...
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