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Blue One View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 09 Nov 13
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Posts: 317 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D-Zero
    Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 10:20am
Originally posted by maxibuddah


Originally posted by winging it

This forum has become sad and dull.

What do you expect, all the interesting topics have been done and all that is left is the age old PY discussion, just that it appears on various threads rather than on just the one. After all it is the only area that can solicit a discussion/argument, everything else is people tend to agree on.

Sorry, I am "with winging it" on this one. It's so sad that there isn't a interesting sailing forum anymore.

Edited by Blue One - 20 Sep 14 at 10:23am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 10:13am
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

[---] then guess at a handicap that is worst than the benchmark class so the new design doesn't whip everyone on its first outings.  


And there you have it right there. The defining control system.

What a great incentive to designers to bring new products to market.

Make sure whatever you do, it's not going to beat our Fireball/Merlin/<insert other dross>

So the whole sorry, sad, pastime, I'm not even going to call it a sport, suffers the lack of image and goal seeking for the young, the image conscious, the ambitious. The market drivers, to ensure a solid supply of future products. Young man, if you get to be real good we'll let you win our event in some warmed over 50's cockle boat. Well that's just like F1 insisting on still using some 1920's Blower Bentley, oh but you can make some bits in carbon, we're good like that.

Don't make us anything new we don't want it.

For f**ks Sake.

Dozy, Old, Sad, Buffers...

There are not enough qualitative expletives to describe you people.

No wonder your premier series is sponsored by some lame direct sell insurance outfit, hey that's right up there in the image stakes, real formula 1 stuff - no thanks, not even at my age would my aspirations be set that low.

Does anybody even notice these days? Sailjuice? what's that? Antiquated boat racing, don't pay any attention nothing new there, just a bunch of eccentrics seeing how far they can twist some old rules to give each other prizes, they have a system but nobody is allowed to know or understand how it works, folk go there just to see each other really nobody expects anything from it.

Sponsors what do they get? Oh they sell insurance anyway so nobody gives a damn about them.

Insurance, how dull is that?

And you wonder why it's dying as an aspirational activity.

Edited by iGRF - 20 Sep 14 at 10:54am
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 9:26am
Originally posted by winging it

This forum has become sad and dull.

What do you expect, all the interesting topics have been done and all that is left is the age old PY discussion, just that it appears on various threads rather than on just the one. After all it is the only area that can solicit a discussion/argument, everything else is people tend to agree on.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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winging it View Drop Down
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 8:57am
This forum has become sad and dull.
the same, but different...

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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 7:31am
This has been a fascinating discussion on handicaps for new designs,  but one with plenty of deja-vu over the years

The current practise is to look at the boat specs and compare,  find a similar design  then guess at a handicap that is worst than the benchmark class so the new design doesn't whip everyone on its first outings.  Then as more real data emerges the handicap will tend to rise to its more natural position

IMHO in these days of more data being available and more accessible technology, there should be a better and fairer way of handling new classes,  and I plan to ask this to be added to the agenda to the next PYaG meeting.  

In PYS we now have nearly a million rows of results data with times.  Over the last year SailRacer have also  GPS tracked more than 1,000 races which gives plenty of performance data,  particularly as we have also measured and recorded the course,  often with wind data and sometimes tidal flows.

With all this data I am sure we can do much more.
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branchingfactor View Drop Down
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Posts: 2 		Post Options Post Options   Quote branchingfactor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 4:40am
Here's how you can set the initial PY number accurately. Open a betting market where people can bet on what the PY number will be in one year. Then you use the weighted average predicted PY number to set the initial PY number. If someone wants to improperly influence the initial PY number they can, but it will cost them a lot of money to do so. It's like an ideas future for PY numbers.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 10:30pm
Interesting that earlier on in the thread GRF suggests getting a Minisail because it has a bandit handicap... all it has is a trial number from Whitefriars, which may have been adopted at other clubs because they asked. The handicap has given me inconsistant results, as the boat is a bit binary, but on average slightly worse than the Lightning, which has a fair few returns.

In reality, the Minisail, despite being a 55 year old design, is in exactly the same position as the Zero, except that there won't be a hundred boats sold this autumn, so it will never get enough returns to even get an EN, I would imagine. However, it shows that a club based number can gain traction - we don't have to wait for it to be imposed on us from "above".

You could always try one out though, grumph - I suspect you would hate it, as it is really, really dated. I like it that way, of course.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:35pm
Mike you have somewhat missed my point, but agree this debate will run, it's already wildly removed from the early stages.

Back to talking about the d0 and how splendid it is...

Sadly I still won't of sailed mine this weekend! Missing barts bash as well which is disgraceful, but I have a mtb enduro race I have been committed to for a while to do.  Got to get my fitness up to sail to py  Wink
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by getafix

As I hate having to use rope halyards (stretchy things that break a lot) I'd love to see wire everywhere but I've been told it's "impossible" with external halyards on carbon sticks - what's the arrangement on the zero?

Same arrangement as on the d1 getafix, basically a 12" wire strop with a ferrelly that pulls down into a wire cleat (see peaks video) neat arrangement ensures halyard is at the same point everytime.  It's a fantastic arrangement.
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:29pm
It's an external rope for all but the last couple of feet which is wire.
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