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The Tasar v the Icon
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Tasar v the Icon
    Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 10:00am
And Rodney is absolutely right not to get drawn into the debate - it never looks good.

FWIW - most of the discussions I've seen with D-Zero sailors re PY doesn't have any sour edge to it.  Even the GL number seems to be 'accepted' as nothing more than a first step- the last thing the D-Zero needs is a bandit handicap reputation from 'cleaning up' at one of those more prolific events.  It'll serve the core customers (club sailors) poorly if that were to happen, so best the GL team err on the side of caution until a proper EN is published, which at 1010 they would seemingly be doing.  Even then, it's not that harsh in the grand scheme of things, although I agree using the D-One handicap because it has the word 'Devoti' in it sounds a bit riduclous  LOL

With guys like you sailing them regularly, it won't be long before the RYA publish something- then when something has been published, that will then give a basis for comment and discussion from those with commercial agendas.  
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iiitick View Drop Down
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 9:57am
It is possible to make an educated guess though (for those with education). I have never seen a D Zero in the flesh but looking at pictures and specification it should be just a bit faster than a Supernova. Similarly Icon should be faster than Tasar (if it wasn't there would be little point in making it) looks like sub 1000 to me, say 900?

My gripe with the Quba is that no common sense was applied, perhaps it was not taken seriously, It is quite wide, not that heavy, fully battened and has a point at one end so how could it be only 1220? It is a proper boat not like blunt and flappy Topper.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 9:36am
Originally posted by iGRF


Now we need people like Mike, Rodney, RS, to continue to innovate rather than warm over old dross in the hope of sales through temporary handicap advantage, at the moment the system encourages just that, products for the dubious of character, whilst those of us happy to purchase a brand new untried and tested boat are then punished for doing so by a petty small minded and protectionist elite.


It is a catch 22 situation though. The system cannot give an EN without data and you cannot get data without a PY number of some sort. There are guidelines on the RYA website for the issuing of a PY where one does not exist so there is very much and element of finger in the air here.

The manufacturers/developers of a class are damned if they do and damned if they don't (but they will have an idea of where the boat will sit in the established tier of classes).

Take the D-Zero The distributor has been unwilling to be drawn in to a PY discussion. The general feeling is that 1040-1050 is the likely range. Most clubs I know of are using 1044 or 1045 as a start point. Others are using the great lakes data (which is based in Dan in his Punk IIRC) which give 1010. One club are being stupid and using anything that says Devoti from the PY list so one guy was allocated 959 (the D-1 PY), I think he has made presentations though.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 8:54am
Originally posted by DaveT

You've made a fast simple boat, congratulations :)
You're angry other people acknowledge you've made a fast simple boat, odd :s
You make personal attacks against people who put a masses of time and energy into the sport, hope it makes you feel good because its hard to see how it will sell any boat


I think you may have wrongly accused Mike of the anger and personal attacks, they are coming from me. I can do this, I have no commercial involvement, I believe the system that awards these 'handicaps' is wrong, morally, & ethically, it also loans itself to such accusations due to lack of transparency and the behind closed doors in smoked filled rooms nature of its application.

There is an easy solution to it, I don't know how many times it has to be presented to 'them' but if it were, and the formula open to scrutiny then there could be no adverse comments, the rest of the system could continue, local clubs could vary it if they have the political clout to do so and there would be no 'personal' attacks.

Now we need people like Mike, Rodney, RS, to continue to innovate rather than warm over old dross in the hope of sales through temporary handicap advantage, at the moment the system encourages just that, products for the dubious of character, whilst those of us happy to purchase a brand new untried and tested boat are then punished for doing so by a petty small minded and protectionist elite.

That's why they are being attacked for being that way.

Edited by iGRF - 30 Jul 14 at 8:55am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 8:45am
Sounded to me like a builder in a different region, with slightly different ideas on what will sell.

I'd imagine it is only a few in the UK who care "how fast" the boat is compared to others down to a % point (if the boat was sailing off 97 rather than 98, would we have had such a fuss?), so spreading the market makes sense!

I've sailed the boat in very light winds (and must find a day to sail it in more), found it accellerated wonderfully in the small gusts, and can well believe it will have a fast handicap once the returns come in. Otherwise, why not just forget the results for the moment, get the times sent through to the PYAG, and see what happens for 2015/16? Meanwhile, get the boats together in groups within the handicap races (so the times go in) but ignore all but the class and on the water results. Bet you have great racing against a whole load of boats, from really well sailed Albacores to less well sailed 505s.

Get photos and articles "out there" about the fleet racing, make it sound friendly, exciting and competitive (in that order), lend boats out and see it grow.  I'm pretty sure this is what Mike and the CA are aiming at already, but the PY griping is a distraction.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by kneewrecker

Although will Devoti still be building Icons when the mystical new builder gets announced?

Eh? Why move production away from one of the best?

no idea- not that moving away has even been confirmed, just that another builder is due to be announced - could be an antipodean, far east or US builder for all we know....

... more to follow from Mike when he's good and ready no doubt.
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

Although will Devoti still be building Icons when the mystical new builder gets announced?

Eh? Why move production away from one of the best?
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DaveT View Drop Down
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Posts: 76 		Post Options Post Options   Quote DaveT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 9:34pm
You've made a fast simple boat, congratulations :)

You're angry other people acknowledge you've made a fast simple boat, odd :s

You make personal attacks against people who put a masses of time and energy into the sport, hope it makes you feel good because its hard to see how it will sell any boat
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 9:22pm
Its far easier to produce a reliable and fair evaluation handicap from a single known crew of well established ability than it is to produce one from a random selection of crews of mixed and unknown ability. All you have to do is back calculate a number that produces results in the known range.
So far we have four quite separate guesses at where the icon should fall, a paper exercise I did many topics ago, the EN produced by the online system, Peaky's formula based on published measurements and Mark's careful comparison of a crew of known ability. They have all come out in the same sort of area. To continue [redacted] seems remarkably obtuse. But I'm being guilty of repeating the same action - applying reason - and expecting a different result. Goodbye.
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marke View Drop Down
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Posts: 211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote marke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by blaze720

Still struggling to understand the marketing approach

Marke - And I don't understand your subject change now either.  You presented the case of a single Icon as indicative of what precisely ?   And if not of anything relevent what was your purpose ? You must have known it had the potential to mislead with a sample size of ONE yet where was any real the statistical 'health warning' ?   If you crunch numbers professionally then I would suggest you very well understood what you were doing.  In other words do you still think it was a balanced point that you made ?

Yep I was very clear about the numbers and the data I was using.  I think we have enough data to say that the calls for a PN of 1000 are not realistic.  You may disagree - your prerogative.


But moving on ... as we must.  You ask about 'marketing' now - what on earth has that got to do with your presentation of partially processed numbers as fact ?    Or are you now implying that Icon owners and others interested commercially in the boat simply don't pose awkward questions in case it damages sales ?   Well we have no problem with anyone suggesting that Icon is pretty fast and in fact it does raise profile .....  However if you think we are going to 'knuckle down' and not raise legitimate concerns then you are likely to be proved wrong. 

I was very clear in my original post that I thought you had achieved a lot with the Icon and a change of marketing strategy from whining about the PN might be beneficial - as I hope a future owner at some point I stand by that.


Other 'new' classes will soon be subject to the same process and are likely to be far far more vocal on the subject !   All they and we want is fair handicap numbers that reflects average performance in average boats with average crews...  Good ....Yes or No ? 

How can you give an accurate average to a new boat - follow the logic.  By the way it isn't an average - its an average of about the top 60% of performances.  For what its worth I would support a regression analysis for EN analysis - probably Dan's rather than Peaky's as you need some sort of "design goodness factor" to deal with target the design was aimed at. This would be easier for both developers and the RYA.  Remember also that this would not have been very different for the EN set for the Icon.  The regression analysis must not continue to full PN numbers though as you would quickly have designers gaming the system.


Now why not simply borrow an Icon yourself - risk reputation as we do constantly and  'have a go' yourself  !  What you go to lose ?  I'm sure the rather able Icon helm Paul Bartlett (for it is he at Starcross) will help out if you are local and if he cannot we or the CA will.   None of us bite and who knows you might even like it.

Already organised - just need to fix a date.  I'm sure I will enjoy it - my type of boat.  Class stance - not so sure.



Edited by marke - 29 Jul 14 at 8:56pm
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