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The Tasar v the Icon

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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Tasar v the Icon
    Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by chrisg



If clubs tell us the EN's are of no use we could look to stop publishing them



As Commodore of the Hythe and Saltwood Sailing Club, I'm hereby telling you your EN's are no use, not only are they no use, they show you and your system up in extremely bad light, to quote one of our members, "what idiot dreamt that number up". Do you delight in looking foolish? As well as bringing the entire system into disrepute?

Edited by iGRF - 28 Jul 14 at 10:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 10:42pm
I'd disagree with Grumph on this... I've only got personal experience of the ENs for the Alto and now the D-One, so whilst not extensive I think the Alto is a great example of what happens.
When the boy and I started racing the boat we were racing off 925 (CA recommended) and were finishing where we expected to in club racing. At the Medway Regatta we sailed of 915 and the Altos took the top 4 places (albeit in favourable conditions for the design). Come the SailJuice series we had to sail off 910, and again we ended up where we could reasonably expected to be-ish, and then the RYA issued an EN of 912.
So what does it all mean? Obviously, it means that with time in the boat and experience we got faster - well who wouldn't? The way that the number has come down meant we never had to go through the embarrassment (and dirty looks) of the handicap bandit level too much, and I dare say that at this year's SailFest I'll be close in the results (in my D-One) to the Alto we were dicing with in 2013 (when we both kept them upright).

The system ain't perfect, but it's not bad either, and this is why you can't step in to an Icon for the 1st time and expect to win straight off, no matter how good you are in your usual boat.

Edited by Bootscooter - 28 Jul 14 at 10:43pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 11:25pm
If the number, based on someone who has only just learned to tack, is coming out nearer 1000, it would suggest that the EN is pretty close, and will just be brought down a bit when more muppets start sailing the boat.

Chris, thank you for posting again, it is nice to get some actual real facts about the system.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

I'd disagree with Grumph on this...


I think it's fair to say most of us would disagree with iGRF.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 12:01am

EN's !

The 'cloak' of constantly stating that they are the result of club returns does not enhance any debate on the general subject.  It is not sufficient justification.  It gives a misleading 'sense' that there were lots and lots of results and lends any resulting EN number a bit of erroneous credibility.  For Icon there are precious few ....  We know there are not enough results yet, that will always happen with new classes.  But regrettably the system cannot apply a common sense methodology when dealing with new classes.  In fact it appears to take a perverse pride in this inflexibility.  Fit for purpose ?  Well we are biased of course so step up to the plate and for Pete’s sake show us that '969' is a truly representative average against other classes  Can Icon be sailed to 969 ?  Yes of course ... but only on rare occasion, on the right courses and so on.   In wider competition and against good examples of other classes and against top quartile crews -  much much less likely my friends.   It is not slow for sure and Icon is the fastest 2-sail production hiker as far as we know but is it realistically all of nearly 50 PN points faster that a Tasar ?  (now the second fastest production 2-sailer in the world !) Faster - yes we agree of coure ... but ....          
 
Even my own club, Burghfield SC,  the one that possibly provided in excess of 50% of the individual  'club returns' used to generate the current EN of '969' for Icon runs us off 990 in 2014.  The local handicappers are not known for doing any favours whatsoever, so why on earth they might be bothered to do so in this instance despite the appearance of a fancy new 'EN' ? .....   might it just be because they have little faith in th enew EN either ?    Could it be some of the 'good'  and 'great' of the club are so easily persuaded to gentle with us ? ... or have a few actually tried it for themselves ?

Nobody is asking favours and I for one am certainly not suggesting bias but heaven above surely the Portsmouth system can manage and come up with a better and more appropriate approach to handicapping new classes ?  No class association or manufacturer really wants to set PNs - despite the odd lazy inferences they might want to do exactly that.  

So of course we prefer GL numbers - it is still not an ideal system (and yes we do know it rests in part on the methodology of the official PN approach) but it is more progressive for sure and getting 'there' quicker.  IMO PNs should only be based on the results of the front quartile of any fleet and at introduction new classes should be assessed with significant weighting given to results from ’ranking’ handicap events such as the sailjuice series in the first 2-3 years.  Thousands of club results but with numbers that include a rump of old and uncompetitive examples of any class are to a great extent a waste of time.  Larger samples lend credibility but only if they are all truly representative of what any particular boat is actually capable of.....  Get rid of the old/slow 'dilution' is part of the argument.

And in the meantime just sail 'it' cos you love it !  Just like we do .....

Mike L.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Bootscooter

   At the Medway Regatta we sailed of 915 and the Altos took the top 4 places (albeit in favourable conditions for the design). .


In Medway bless them they sail a river, aligned perfectly with reaching angles of a South Westery Wind.

You come and try sailing it against Merlins & Contenders on Open Water, or RS 500's for that matter or bless him the bandit of all bandits Medway Maniacs V3000 at 1007.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 10:13am
Originally posted by iGRF

 

In Medway bless them they sail a river, aligned perfectly with reaching angles of a South Westery Wind.


[drum roll please] shock horror, stop the press...  folks in boats suitable for their location do well... [/drum roll]
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 11:33am
We know exactly why you don't come up to Medway and race against other Altos, Grumph. It'd be tricky explaining why it was favourable for the others and not for you.

p.s. SW wind?  Can't remember one of those this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 12:34pm
Presumably the same reason you lot don't come down to Hythe then..

NE is just the other tack.

And I'll save myself the whining I'd get, " oh he only beat us cos he's got a bigger sail and his kite doesn't jam cos he's got that metal chute and he can wing his wang further than us.."



Edited by iGRF - 29 Jul 14 at 12:37pm
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Presumably the same reason you lot don't come down to Hythe then..

NE is just the other tack.

And I'll save myself the whining I'd get, " oh he only beat us cos he's got a bigger sail and his kite doesn't jam cos he's got that metal chute and he can wing his wang further than us.."


I think you've said enough about launching and recovering at Hythe to put us off without any additional fear of The Great Grumph .

Your italics: all the more reason to come up here and check the differences.
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