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The Tasar v the Icon
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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Jul 14 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

I know some designers who reckon that some of the advances of the newer hull designs can rely on them being sailed upright, whereas the older hulls can sometimes tolerate more heel. Therefore a less expert crew can do better on an older-style hull in some situations.

As a general observation that's true of course, and wasn't it you who pointed out that the dynamics of a V hull with 5 degree deadrise sailed with 5 degrees heel might be quite similar to those of a flat floored hull sailed bolt upright? But in the specific case of the wide low deadrise stern Phantom hull - maybe not!
Heel tolerance has certainly got to be a major consideration for the designer of a one design.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 14 at 6:22pm
If ever a boat appears to need to be sailed upright, the Phantom is it. I think this might be one of the reasons why top Phantom sailors seem to be able to sail the boat so much faster than the rest.

From the perspective of GRF's comment, the Phantom would be a poor choice for a doublehander, I think. Mind, I'm struggling to think of a good choice for a singlehander conversion.
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 14 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by dogslife

Having taken part in 3 Tasar Championships (UK Nationals, Europeans & Worlds) in the mid 80's and having spent many happy hours chatting to Charlie McKee (9 times Tasar World Champ & current US Sailing High Performance Director - http://www.sailracingmagazine.com/features/charlie-mckee-us-sailing-high-performance-director) I well remember how important he felt kicker tension was when it came to making Tasars go quickly, especially upwind. So much so, he used to get Becky (his crew at the time) to continually play the kicker & the jib.

Without question Tasars are very technical boats to sail and if you get it right they're an absolute joy, but if you can't get your head around what you should be doing with the various controls I would accept that they can become a bit frustrating..........

In addition to the typical Enterprise type controls, not only do you have the 'spanner' and the jib stick to master, but you also have shroud runners (to rake the mast forward on the run), both mainsheet & mainsheet traveller to play going upwind & a raking daggerboard to control.

There's loads of info on the CA site - http://www.tasar.org/racing-a-sailing

When be bought our Tasar about ten years ago it was properly calibrated with all the 'red dots' in place. We thought, 'Ha! just read the manual, set it to the dots and away we go. No, not that simple. To get performance you have to concentrate and observe, particularly on a lake. When you get it right they fly. Rumor has it that upwind planing is possible and it is if you just knock it off a bit, not the best idea when lake sailing. On a decent windy reach we could hold a 300 though.
Tasars are really great boats.
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 14 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Rupert

From the perspective of GRF's comment, the Phantom would be a poor choice for a doublehander, I think. Mind, I'm struggling to think of a good choice for a singlehander conversion.

Any una-rigged singlehander is going to run into helm balance problems once you add a jib.  

From the hull perspective, though, the Contender would be a good candidate.  Indeed it was tried back in the 70's/80's, but the low hounds meant a very small, short-luffed jib.  Add an Icon rig instead, stepped further aft, 3k kite and a lightweight crew and you'd have a nice boat, I reckon.  But it might just be simpler to buy a V3k!

Jim, you often remark disparagingly about older hull designs, but provided a hull is fair and doesn't induce premature flow separation, there is no such thing as a bad hull.  It just depends on what you want it to do.  I can think of few hulls worse than, say, an RS800 in light airs, for example, but those are not the conditions for which people buy it.  

More modern hulls tend to be aimed more at planing performance, but we don't actually spend that much of our sailing  planing as a percentage of time...  Which is maybe why the Laser and Scorpion have PY's significantly lower than their basic data of length/beam/weight might suggest, and they achieve that without being stupidly tippy - the usual 'easy' route to higher performance.
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Rod Porteous View Drop Down
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Posts: 21 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rod Porteous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 9:37pm
Great to see a thread comparing the tasar with the icon. I sail a tasar and help run the class association, so you would expect me to have  a view!

The tasar sails  competitively with an optimum crew weight of 130 kg and therefore with two medium weight adults  struggles to sail to its handicap in sub 10 knots. As said it sticks in the light stuff.

It's a fact that the Tasar will plane upwind and can still beat a modern bang uptodate £20 k Merlin to the windward mark, at its optimum design wind speed. It just shows how right Frank Bethwaite got the design, read "High Performance Sailing" for an in depth explanation of why it's still such a technical revelation. Much of the book is about the Tasar.

Mike has come up with a development of the tasar / NS 14 aimed at the, as I understand, 150kg crew and helm combo. I am chasing Mike for a demo sail and looking forward to comparing its performance, as we are too heavy for the Tasar.

The early marketing of the Tasar by Performance Sailcraft promoted the fact the boat was "light" years ahead of its rivals such as the Enterprise. The early boats were built with hull weights of around 60 kg, my spare tasar, no 351 weighs 57kg is about 34 years old, still stiff and capable of winning a nationals ( in hands more skilled than mine)and cost the staggering sum of £ 500 . Thats always been the attraction of the class and also  in some ways a problem as old boats have a long competitive life and therefore there has been limited demand for new boats. Current class rules are for 68 kg hulls and five new boats have just been imported and sold this year so the class is still active. We get around 25 boats at our nationals  with 30 year old boats still competitive, at last years worlds in the USA old boats featured high in the results. I don't know of any other  two man 14 ' boat this light which makes on shore handling a pleasure.

Comments are often made that it lacks a spinnaker which is exactly its point, high performance without the added sail area.The kicker, rotating mast, ( controlled by the mast spanner) main sheet traveller, main sheet and sliding shrouds all need skilful adjustment to make the boat perform. Get it wrong and not changing gear will see performance drop more quickly than conventional boats, and that's the challenge.


The Tasar makes a great adult child / teenager  or husband/ wife option at low cost with the potential to be competitive at a friendly and family orientated nationals. Cheap fun friendly sailing.

We  have  five confirmed boats entering Chichester federation week at hayling island sailing club (HISC) and have two spare competitive boats that can be loaned to interested sailors. Just contact me.We have three regular Tasars  at HISC with a demo boat always available.

If Mike has improved on the tasar, promotes it and develops the class association as he has the Blaze which has probably one of the most friendly and helpful bunch of sailors around he has a sure winner!
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iiitick View Drop Down
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 10:14pm
I still think the Tasar is bang up to date in so many ways. Where it does fall short is in appearance. That high bow freeboard and boxy transom just looks old fashioned however practical it may be. That is where the Icon wins, modernity. I would love to see a carbon mast on a Tasar as well as a flying jib stick. What I really would like to see is Icon verses Tasar on a decent windy reach!
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Rod Porteous View Drop Down
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Posts: 21 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rod Porteous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 10:26pm
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Rod Porteous View Drop Down
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Posts: 21 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rod Porteous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 10:27pm
So would I and  wonder if any are coming to fed week or round sheppy later in the year
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 11:04pm
What I really would like to see is Icon verses Tasar on a decent windy reach!

Been there ... done that ... and you need to know what ? Wink
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Posts: 147 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jeepers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 11:49pm
.....Where it does fall short is in appearance. That high bow freeboard and boxy transom just looks old fashioned"

Low freeboard=wet and cold for most people in this country's climate, boxy transom: WTF - the only people that can see it when you're sailing are the one's behind you

Been there ... done that ... and you need to know what ?
Which Taser championship did you win?

There were two reasons I never bought one: first, at the time, I couldn't find one on the secondhand market, and second, is because someone told me they're all into wife swapping. Since then he's told me they meant crew swapping (bit of back pedalling methinks).
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