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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

I don't really get a vibe there's much 'D-Zero hype',

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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 3:21pm
I think that is unlikely.  The D-Zero will perform to expectation on RTC club courses, and will (in theory) provide good racing with similar paced existing classes- be that finns, OKs, Supernovas etc  I fully expect some movement on the PY, but this unlikely to be the monumental shifts enough for anyone to really notice, not once they've got the boat dialled in anyway.  

The RS100 had nothing to race against unless there just happened to be an existing fleet of 200s and/or 400s.  Plus a number of us bought them and sailed them at small inland venues, or places without dedicated W/L racing.  Sure, you could say that was naive, I chalk it up to experience.  Anyway not an issue for the D-Zero, it just slots right in to a typical handicap fleet.  No more advantageous than any other unarig really - it's what the Rooster 8.1 could be with a hull & rig upgrade ;-)

Both classes are similar only in one respect: amateur sailors are giving them a chance, a chance that maybe the D-One was not afforded.   I think there are 35+ confirmed orders (more deposits) for the UK.  That seems like good initial take up, I hope that's sustainable rather than the boom / bust model of the 100.

Other than that, I think the 100 was more hype, the D-Zero more reality- I don't really get a vibe there's much 'D-Zero hype', it's just a 'nice boat' that is reflected in the reportage.    This is possibly a realisation of a maturity in the marketplace that doesn't think of asymmetric sailing as some panacea for boring boats.  The 90's marketing bull finally wearing off?  The asymmetric dinghies which are good have survived, the rest are dead or dying.  A bit like foiling.  No one wants a 600FF, even the A-Class boys are in meltdown.  If you want to foil, get a moth.  It's niche, but it's right for the market space.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by Neptune

Originally posted by AlexM

I think the monster tag might have come from the gybing aspect where it was difficult in high winds especially if you were at the lower end of the scale (a gybing strop soon sorted that out)


Interested in that - in a Musto we'd not gybe the main by hand with the kite up until it was ballistic and only then because you were safety gybing. The main gets left to sort itself out


I agree, in the 100 I never had a gybing strop and never once had a problem gybing because the main was coming over late. As long as you had enough mainsheet on the main would just gently flop over and the kite would do all the pulling through the gybe. The main killer was going slow into and through the gybe, just as in a 700/musto. Priority must be given to getting your arse over the side rather than fiddling around gybing the main!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote boatbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by iitick

When I first saw the 100 at the show I was so impressed with the sexy carbon foredeck and all that stuff. It did look the dogs at Ali Pali. We have one at our club now and it looks flappy and clumsy alongside a 300. At it's launch all you wealthy guys must have been fingers poised for the bax payment. There will always be fashionable/boats/cars/trousers, no harm in that it keeps the wheels of industry turning. The same thing is happening with the D Zero but the D Zero looks lovely and modern as well as being user friendly. I see a real future for it as a mass participation class.


Agreed ... all the fundamentals look good on the D-0.

I really hope the D-0 does not end up the way of the RS100 ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 2:39pm
When I first saw the 100 at the show I was so impressed with the sexy carbon foredeck and all that stuff. It did look the dogs at Ali Pali. We have one at our club now and it looks flappy and clumsy alongside a 300. At it's launch all you wealthy guys must have been fingers poised for the bax payment. There will always be fashionable/boats/cars/trousers, no harm in that it keeps the wheels of industry turning. The same thing is happening with the D Zero but the D Zero looks lovely and modern as well as being user friendly. I see a real future for it as a mass participation class.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 1:48pm
that's the unofficial training sail for featherweights.... a 7.4, not class legal.

Yes, that was amusing when it was launched, literally weeks after the PY debacle when the RYA gave the boat one PY, without any knowledge of which sail had been used for the 3 results it based its decision on.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

Anyway, one thing's for sure... there were a couple of different size sails in the development programme and on the prototype boats we sailed- the aim at the time was trying to work out the optimum for the production boat.  I sailed the yellow one.  It seemed pretty sweet tbh- I reckon that was about 8.5-9.0m.

Ah, so 'larger persons' were indeed involved with the development  Wink

But which rig is this, then?:


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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Multiple rigs don't seem to have hurt Laser sales.

On another point, as I understand it, the guy who commissioned the RS100 design in the first place (before RS got involved) wanted a winged (not racked), stable-ish hiker with an asymmetric.  He weighed around 11 stone, and the original rig size was to have been smaller.

Then to the chap's delight, RS took up the project and developed it, but being big guys they wanted more power, hence the bigger rigs, making it more of a beast than was ever intended (RS500 suffered a similar fate).

Not surprisingly, the originator sold his 100 very shortly after he got it; it wasn't what he'd wanted.

Maybe explains why the smaller rig is now more popular.


I know of Ian's report, I posted it to a blog run about the class several years ago, but worth pointing out RS paint a slightly different story about the early stages of development, and there were other folks who were already in discussion- a hiking 700 (B14 for 1 person) was the basis of one such conversation iirc.  

Anyway, one thing's for sure... there were a couple of different size sails in the development programme and on the prototype boats we sailed- the aim at the time was trying to work out the optimum for the production boat.  I sailed the yellow one.  It seemed pretty sweet tbh- I reckon that was about 8.5-9.0m.  
Some bright spark decided it was best to have two, not one, going into the production boat and the sail sizes (inc the kite) began to get bigger and bigger- chasing some elusive performance that ultimately makes the boat so bi-polar.   I guess fear that the Devoti offering might be quicker drove this to some extent- not that speed should or would ultimately be that relevant, both get caned by an MPS regardless.

I remember thinking two rigs was a bit bold, but I disagreed with those who thought it would lead to a still born class.  On reflection, they were right and numbers at events only have to be looked at for confirmation that the class has pretty much stalled in terms of new boat sales- especially in the 10.2 iteration.  15 on Apolloduck right now... that's not healthy is it?   

As Paul points out, the Laser had sold what, 100,000 units globally before the M rig / Radial Rig came out.   Even then Laser were very clear to manage it as very much a separate class, which to be fair, RS are emulating with the 3 Aero Classes, so I hope we don't see history repeat itself.  It would be interesting to know the split between 5, 7 and 9 rigs that have been pre-ordered.  My gut instinct would tell me that the 5 and 7 will ultimately become the popular choice for that platform.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote haroosh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by boatbasher

Originally posted by kneewrecker



Tim Not So Dim was right, but I even he would be surprised how quickly the bottom's dropped out of this class.  



I think the ambiguity over the rigs didn't help but fundamentally the concept was/is flawed ... it was never going to deliver on the performance promises ...
 
I was one of the early adoptors of this boat when it was launched and after changing classes very regularly I have now had this boat for since new and not been tempted to change yet.
For me as a 65kg person I find it a perfect boat (with 8.4 rig) for myself who likes hiking but also likes the thrill of asymetric sailing.
Its very rewarding when hiking hard upwind plodding uphill and is then is superb downwind with nice deep angles.
I agree with some earlier posts that upwind is when I tend to try and hang on when sailing against other slightly faster classes and downwind is when the overtaking happens.
I have missed out on class racing as this boat coincided with young kids arriving but its still alot of fun handicap racing :) I had several seasons fun racing against 200's and 400's in its first 3 years.
Like everything in life its not everyones cup of tea for for some of us the concept was and is spot on :)
 
Keith
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by iitick

You cant argue with multiple rig Lasers as a marketing ploy but 4.7 for children, Radial for youth, full rig for adult and 8.1 for fattie. Most RS 100 sailors are already grown up when they enter the class.

Remember the 8.1 isn't an official Laser rig though (it is nice on light winds Wednesday night racing though... I have 1 for sale if anyone is interested).....
Paul
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