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What does the kicker do?

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pondlife1736 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 May 14 at 11:46am
Originally posted by NickA

Gnav vs Vang?  No difference at all as far as I can see. 


There is a difference. Vang pushes the boom down and forward. Gnav pushes the boom down and back. Both apply same direction bending moment to the mast, but applied at different heights. Replacing Gnav with Vang, or vice versa would therefore give slightly different result
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 14 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by pondlife1736

There is a difference. Vang pushes the boom down and forward. Gnav pushes the boom down and back. Both apply same direction bending moment to the mast, but applied at different heights. Replacing Gnav with Vang, or vice versa would therefore give slightly different result
Indeed, and that becomes significant insofar as you can resist the mast bending forward at the upper attachment point of the gnav using lower shrouds, but it is much harder to find a satisfactory way of stopping it bending back at the gooseneck.  You could use a baby stay from the foredeck to the gooseneck, but your jib won't thank you for it, and probably your original foredeck won't appreciate the loading either.  Thus the mast bend (and so leech tension) is only partially controlled.

For that reason I'd pick a conventional kicker over a gnav every time if the crew wasn't desperately short on space. I have a gnav on the V3k and my crew loves it even if I don't, but on the Laser 3k, I found I could do a lot just by moving the kicker attachment point on the boom forward, closer to the mast, and uprating the purchase to 16:1.  The boom was up to it (or maybe I was just lucky!).

Why a big boat like the Alto, carbon mast and all,  has a gnav I can't imagine.  Extra friction and extra cost that could be better put to a carbon boom that would be made more feasible by use of a conventional kicker.
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NickA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NickA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 14 at 10:24pm
Like THIS.    Hmm, maybe.   
Certainly the point of force bending the mast changes (as I said in previous post) but the boom isn't actually pushed BACK just DOWN (the GNAV strut is fixed on the mast and slides on the boom). 

Possibly the mast IS pulled back at the gooseneck, though I've never noticed it.  I guess the bit from gnav to deck is short and stiff so relatively unbending.  The main mast bending action comes from pulling down on the leach of the main sail anyway and that doesn't affect the bottom part of the mast so much. 

Got my crew trapped between the kicker, centreboard case and side tank this afternoon during a hasty gybe and ensuing swim - so I quite appreciate the ergonomic advantages of the GNAV even on a big boat like an Alto; on the V3000 it's a godsend when double handing.

On the other hand - the GNAV certainly has more friction, you can only feed the sail up one side of the boom when raising the main and it does make the bottom corner of the sail look messy on one tack.

PS the Farr 3.7 manages the trick of a rotating mast with lowers:- as the mast rotates, the leeward lowers are wrapped around the mast and tensioned, hooking the top of the mast to windward.  Neat trick!


Edited by NickA - 19 May 14 at 1:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondlife1736 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 14 at 10:40pm
Not quite. It is a classical triangle of forces problem.
The gnav is a pin jointed compression strut. The force acting along the strut can be resolved into a downward (vertical) force and a (horizontal) force pulling the boom backwards. Your diagram is shows only the horizontal component. Friction will alter either the vertical or horizontal component depending on design. 
The vang diagram is correct though, although the resolved forces aren't shown.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 14 at 10:43pm
I hasten to point out that the "centreboard case" to which NickA refers must be on his Javelin!

Diagrams reflect my understanding of what goes on.  Whether you regard it as the sail puling up on the boom end or the boom end pulling down on the sail is immaterial.  Either way, using the gnav the mast is being bent by a pull at the gooseneck and a push at the upper gnav attachment point, instead of at the mast-foot and gooseneck, respectively, when using a vang.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NickA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 14 at 1:15pm
You can work out the resolved forces yerselves.  I only showed the initiating force!

Have to remember that the fixed points are the mast foot and the tops and bottoms of the shrouds; everything pivots around those.

Shall meddle with my GNAVed boat and send photos; I'll be surprised if that bi-directional twist is significant compared to the bend induced by the boom pulling the leach down - but in a spirit of inquiry will be pleased to be found wrong.

Indeed, low floored boats with big centre-board cases and kickers are a recipe for making a big boat seem stupid small inside.  Especially with a 15 stone crew wearing bouyancy and a harness!  Nearly lost my nose a couple of times in early crewing days, until I learned to tack facing backwards.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NickA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 14 at 6:14pm
If anyone is still interested ................

Here are a couple of pics of my V3000 with nearly full mast rake and full GNAV on (more than I'd use when sailing I think) first without the lowers disconnected and then with the lowers on and coming tight at half GNAV.

The boom certainly does NOT move back (other forces won't let it).  Putting on the lowers moves the point of max bend (and minimum sail fullness) up the mast and also causes the GNAV to pull the leach in more.

Think my spreaders are swept back too far tho!


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 14 at 7:24pm
The problem is not actual reverse bend at the gooseneck, but rather uncontrolled bend/movement.  

If you push up on the end of the boom (to simulate wind loading), there is no positive restraint on the gooseneck moving back a little (not necessarily to reverse the direction of bend, but to reduce the forward bend you previously had).  With a conventional kicker, the gooseneck is held by kicker-induced boom thrust against the positive restraint of the lowers adjacent the gooseneck; the only way the sail clew can then move upwards is through stretch in the kicker or bend in the boom.

As a result, for a given kicker setting, the gnav will allow more upward movement of the boom (permitting increased twist) during gusts than a conventional kicker would.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondlife1736 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 14 at 9:13pm
Interesting. 
What about an unstayed mast?
I was looking at an RS300 (which of course has a gnav) at the club on Sunday and noticed that the goosneck is virtually at deck level giving that characteristic angled boom. I'd never really thought about it before but I suppose that was done to limit any boom induced mast bend?
My EPS has the mast collar just under the boom, so the mini-forestay would give the same effect.

Nick, does your V3000 have something like a transverse pin connecting the boom to the mast? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 14 at 9:46pm
I have to use the Gnav on that EPS to make the entry of the sail shallower so the damn thing points worth a damn. It's even worse on the soft sail I've had made, I have to have almost max kicker just to get the sail to even look half normal.
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