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iGRF View Drop Down
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Joined: 07 Mar 11
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Icon
    Posted: 05 Nov 13 at 10:20am
The first thing I think folk have mistaken is the view that I might give a damn about Sailjuice values, they also represent the ugly side of the sport in my view, pseudo professionalism in the guise of amateurs, all that controversy surrounding the Merlin, why would you want to pay money to be involved in all that, to provide cannon fodder for sailmakers? 'Screw them' is the vernacular you apply to that lot...

I've got a new crew, not always that well but he loves sailing, I'm the wrong side of 65, we neither of us, know, or want to know about all those Merlin strings, but we love racing against a couple of fellas who do, and there is no greater pleasure than sailing by them as they scramble over each other to abandon the sinking ship. I love the sea and am more at home on it than I am on the lake, the other day I was talking about a guy who'd normally never be out in the wind we had on Sunday yet there he was hanging in there in his Streaker when he wouldn't have even gone out at Hythe in fact we've been blown off these past 5 weeks, and there am I on the bank watching. I hate to admit it, but I'm more anxious sailing on the lake than ever I am on the sea, as Neal pointed out on that other thread, you run out of room pretty damn quick on the lake so speed it not your friend.

So my creation is not about speed it's about handling, not sinking, being about the same performance as the Merlin, so it can be used both on the sea and in very restricted water maybe I would be better off with the Icon in its standard form, but my man loves his kite and the wire and so do I, ok maybe if I can get him down the lake he'll be content to just sit on the side and we'll sail it wireless, but back on the sea he'll want to be on a wire. So it'll need multiple handicaps eventually, I guess we'll just have to work that out locally, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let some bunch of anarchic agenda driven old buffers decide what it's going to be thanks all the same, until such time as I deign to race again them that is and if that day ever dawned, if I can't persuade others to change the system in the meanwhile, then I shall just have to knuckle under like everyone else and put up with their crap.
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 13 at 9:54am
Greame ...

I think you have 'risen' too quickly ... the standard response is "OK then - here is a boat, borrow it for a month, get used to it and race it yourself"  .... at my own club I've been known to suggest a 'boat swap'  with both parties agreeing to establish the others 'true' handicap in the opposite class.  The owner then being obliged to accept it for a few months afterwards.   Nothing like a bit of positive 'engagement'  ... but few takers for this one usually.

I don't have a problem with anyone using recorded numbers ... and establishing a local first handicap based on real results - prior to the full PN system spitting out a number.   After 100+ races or so you can start to produce something meaningful - particularly if you do another 100 with different  crews as well. 

But there will always be some remaining who still don't 'like' what the numbers and stats are saying for class 'x' even then .. and if in a position to influence they may get tempted to apply a 'fiddle factor' based on impression, anecdote and what can only be described as 'clubhouse politics'.  Sweeping statements starting with  'Anyone can see .... ' or 'It is obvious that ...' can still be heard in the face of the stats staring out of the spreadsheets at them.   LOL    Best not to rise to that particular 'viewpoint' too hard either ... but don't let it drop either.  Just keep reviewing the objective figures yourself and perhaps ask 'them' to show you exactly where you might have 'gone wrong' with the number crunching and analysis.  If they are rational and open they will assist and you will get an adjusted number and if they do not you are no worse off.

Not a problem if you have facts on your side.  You must accept what might be a slightly 'punitive' starting number at first of course.. but keep reminding everyone that you can crunch the numbers as well as anyone and will feel free to come back to highlight objective figures. 

At first with any development boat work it simply does not matter ... it takes time to get right and optimised and all you need is some benchmark to work against.  Focus on the boat and the handicap can follow later.

Mike L.

PS - Why is the 400 being compared here ?  Neither Icon or GRF's project are directly comparable - Icon has no spinnaker and GRF's will have a trapeze.   We know it is a fantastic boat well loved by its adoring owners already ...  How about the GRF machine speculation with something more directly comparable .. like the 500 or Fireball, 3000, perhaps ?


Edited by blaze720 - 05 Nov 13 at 10:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 13 at 9:53am
Originally posted by RS400atC


If it isn't faster than an RS400, it isn't progress is it?

Of course progress could also be lower price, more robustness, greater accessibility, etc. etc. Speed is just the most easily measured metric, not necessarily the most important one.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 13 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Neptune

I think you want to be aiming at 950 so at least you'll be racing over the water with 400's.  Who knows get a few together and that RS400 fella might join you!


If it isn't faster than an RS400, it isn't progress is it?

Assuming the design aim is similar of course.

Of course, if it won't sail to 950 as a hiking boat, maybe we should stick a Proctor Cumulus on it and see if that cheers it up a bit?


(In the real world of course there are many circumstances where a 400 won't easily sail to 950 either!)
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 13 at 9:31am
I think you want to be aiming at 950 so at least you'll be racing over the water with 400's.  Who knows get a few together and that RS400 fella might join you!
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 13 at 8:51am
Originally posted by Hector

Going back to the PY issue. My club is a Sailjuice Series venue, and if you asked to enter with GrFCon or whatever we'd give it a PY of 950. Why? 
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">Clearly It 'ought' to be quicker than an Icon and they're on 1000</span>
Your avowed intent is it should be faster than a Merlin and they're on 975. 
So 950 <span style="line-height: 1.4;">seems</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">about right. Not that difficult really.</span>


Which is exactly what's wrong with the system as it currently stands. I haven't even built it yet and you're handicapping it beyond it's performance. You've no idea what sail plan, sail area, volume, waterline length, wetted area, beam and righting moment, wether it has a trapeze or not, yet it's 950 so not a chance you'll be seeing it in any of your Silly Sailjuice series is there?
No surprise, new boats don't get a look in with that attitude is there? Same as Sailboards were quickly banned from those Open Meetings after we creamed the Burnham Icicle in 1982. Silly silly yottie status quo preservation, rotting away with its Merlins and Fireballs and Solos..

Progressive Boat Builders should gather together, and promote a formula based handicap, remove it from the likes of old buffers like that there Hector, I can't believe I knew him when he was young and virile as a racing windsurfer, look what's happened to him now.

Edited by iGRF - 05 Nov 13 at 8:57am
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Posts: 34 		Post Options Post Options   Quote peterthomas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 13 at 8:47am
Originally posted by Ecosse


The one thing I'll say is that the guys who've sailed Icons seem to REALLY like them for many reasons but primarily because they say they are fantastic to helm upwind, quick around the course, the rig really works and they are more stable than a lot. Seems Icons are good in most conditions and great in a blow and will accept a range of crew sizes up to about 25 stone. Anyone got any honest opinions on the boat .... not from the Forum Chat but from actually sailing one..... interested to hear some honest views from people who like it the way it is and not with Twin Trapezes, foils, a Rig from an international 14 and the bowsprit from an 18' skiff! 
The boat isn't expensive so I hope that people will realise its good and start buying, don't want to be the only one having fun LOL


I have been sailing an Icon for 18 months and I would absolutely agree with all of the comments that Ecosse has picked up and would add that, being very easy to depower, it also works surprisingly well with a lighter overall crew weight. Performance in big seas is also impressive, both upwind and down.
One of the reasons I chose the Icon was because I wanted a double hander that wasn’t going to be too demanding in terms of crew skills and yet was still going to be interesting for both of us to sail. This year I had a beginner RS700 helm as crew on Sundays and a complete novice as crew on Wednesdays and it worked! A few weeks back neither were available and it was the first time I had to make a second phone call to find a replacement. So a double hander that is exciting to sail but with the minimum of crew hassle.   Grf is moving his version in a different direction (nothing surprising there) but if that works for him then great.
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 13 at 1:05am
Going back to the PY issue. My club is a Sailjuice Series venue, and if you asked to enter with GrFCon or whatever we'd give it a PY of 950. Why? 
Clearly It 'ought' to be quicker than an Icon and they're on 1000
Your avowed intent is it should be faster than a Merlin and they're on 975. 

So 950 seems about right. Not that difficult really.
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 13 at 12:23am
Barring the fact that I really like the minority group I've been hanging out with for the last ten years I'd have one tomorrow, makes a lot of sense to me from a boat design point of view. 
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Posts: 3 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ecosse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by Ecosse

I see there a couple of newish Icons for sale at good prices on Apollo Duck. I was thinking of a boat for Scotland also.
Are there any fleets building and who is selling them up north? Are there going to be any class events next year.


I have been digging around to see what is for sale and I'm definitely going to own an Icon, three I think plus the demo. The one thing I'll say is that the guys who've sailed Icons seem to REALLY like them for many reasons but primarily because they say they are fantastic to helm upwind, quick around the course, the rig really works and they are more stable than a lot. Seems Icons are good in most conditions and great in a blow and will accept a range of crew sizes up to about 25 stone. Anyone got any honest opinions on the boat .... not from the Forum Chat but from actually sailing one..... interested to hear some honest views from people who like it the way it is and not with Twin Trapezes, foils, a Rig from an international 14 and the bowsprit from an 18' skiff! 
The boat isn't expensive so I hope that people will realise its good and start buying, don't want to be the only one having fun LOL
Should I buy an Icon????
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