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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Icon
    Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 9:35am
Originally posted by blaze720

You are no real fan of the standard Icon  

On what do you base that on? I actually think it looks a nice boat. 

I just don't see the point putting a kite and trap on it ending up with a boat with no PY that you can't race. I guess your club would give you some sort of local PY but you'd never be able to enter any multi class events ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 9:15am
GRF's project is simply using a good modern, lightweight platform that is available to him as a start ... We are not formally endorsing this sort of concept but then again why would we try and prevent it ?    You cannot stop this sort of private endeavour without coming across all 'big brother' anyway and still failing in the attempt.   The only request we have made is PLEASE do not call it an Icon ... and reasonable chap as GRF (!) is he is OK with that.   

'Progress' only ever happens because somebody has a go ... once upon a time somebody looked at the original Fireball and thought "I wonder if I could put a trapeze on it ... and a spinnaker"  and very possibly were determined enough to also think "stuff what 'they' say .. I'm doing it anyway" ... and a few years later someone else thought "you know what I bet I could put foils ... on my Moth and it is worth trying even though many think it will be a total waste of time"  There are dozens of examples ...

Neither of these examples had anything to race against at first ... if you applied that logic we would all still be sailing in wooden clinker what sits with steel centerboards or well whatever class you think of as a bit 'long in the tooth’ now.  Think of the fun that would be !    Many experiment within the development classes as well.  If you try and produce a 'better' Moth, N12, Merlin or NS14 you risk wasting effort as well... if it faster fantastic but you do take that risk and may still 'be still be racing on your own' .. But nearer  the back of the fleet.

The UK is one of the few countries where people still tinker, experiment and give it a go when it comes to dinghies.  Invention and innovation is good and long may a few put their money where their mouths are !  You don't have to .. and if GRF is prepared to share his experiences again here, which he does not have too,  you perhaps should be interested or even entertained to see how it goes.

Mike L


Edited by blaze720 - 04 Nov 13 at 9:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 7:30am
'racing tool'? With no opposition?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 12:37am
59er straight rockered? [boggle]
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 11:48pm
The 59er remains what it's always been, an over canvassed straight rockered one trick pony. The Alto is doing just fine, there are more Alto's racing round here than 59ers and last I heard it was 59er crews giving up on it to buy Alto's. Alto's are a tad big for the lake is another problem.

We, for those joining late in the day, are too light now for our Alto and it is just too damn heavy to manhandle round the beach between us, I'm on record about bloody dinghies being just too damned heavy, I lifted the Icon hull myself, a whole lot easier than i can lift the Alto I currently own. It, also suffers from undersized self bailers, has done ever since I've had it and it's becoming annoying keep sinking all the time if we go even slightly over, I'm also on record as saying it would be a whole lot better as a wash through.

This project other than knocking the bottom bit of a discarded Icon hull will be a different boat. It'll have the mast right down to the bottom for a start, it'll have a hole for a kite and maybe another at the back for a 2nd kite, not sure yet.

Devoti own the Icon, it's their responsibility to market it, I get the impression, that they ain't doing enough here for the early adopters, but either way, I don't want an Icon, I want a three sail boat, a three sail wash through boat the only other thing on the market is the RS500 and I've been there, done that and chucked that particular T shirt in the bin, this will be a better RS500, or a better RS400, or it could be either, I haven't made my mind up yet, just consider yourselves lucky I'm letting you watch me cock something else up, only this time I know a ton more than I did before and I reckon the end result of this will be a jolly fine racing tool for the sort of water and type of course we all use more often than not, plus if you have symmetric skills they won't be lost whilst you try Assym tricks and vice versa.

Edited by iGRF - 03 Nov 13 at 11:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 10:13pm
interesting point Jeepers... maybe Mike's calling bluff here though, after all he practically offered Graeme a kite and pole from the back of the yard for his Blaze, but Graeme never actually took him up on it ;-)

But I can see where you're coming from if you're a lurker here reading this as a result of a bit of icon google research.

Also nice to see Slippery back again (hi Jim!) the 59er development is a good example of how not to do it- absolutely nothing wrong with the boat, AIUI, Julian B was never critical of the boat, just that it was slightly over-engineered for the target market, e.g. epoxy throughout, pushing the price up somewhat.  (I think he posted on SA along the lines of 'Dad just wanted the perfect boat for everybody').  

In the UK, some of us questioning the sanity of Ovingtons pushing the trap kit at the time.  It seemed to be trying to compete with too many things (and just maybe differentiate their conflict of interest with the B14)- the Osprey guys were not so impressed iirc.  All it did do was alienate the two handed hiking market- who may have been convinced with buying into the 'fastest and best' (possibly aimed at two blokes given the large kite) who were getting a bit bored with their 400 or wanted to ditch the wires on their 14 / 800 or former 5000 / Boss sailors looking for the next new thing.... either way, adding trap kits changed the dynamic of the marketing message and class lost its positioning imho.  

Will GRF send the Icon in the same direction?   



Edited by yellowwelly - 03 Nov 13 at 10:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jeepers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 9:43pm
... but what if he is really is on an interesting track after all the 'puff and stuff' here?

I've kept an interest in the Icon as a simple, straightforward boat with great performance on restricted or open stretches of water. But seeing the turn of this debate, if I were a potential owner, the builder/marketer is now taking an interest in people developing trapezes and kites on what was professed to be a brilliant enough platform anyway. Sounds like anarchy to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by fdsailor

I heard the light weight of the boat meant that the sheet loads were lower than you'd think, in spite of the size of the kite. The trapeze thing was certainly one of the nails in the coffin. Still time for that boat to make a comeback though, with the right builder and support (and strictly no fannying about with what was already a very good boat). There's one on Apolloduck for £2.5K, a lot of boat for the money. Julian Bethwaite said he thought it should have been built in poly instead of epoxy to help with the price, and people in the UK seem happy to buy primarily on price which is fine but there is a world of difference between the quality and technology of, say, an RS400 and a Winder Merlin for only £2K more money (all poly e-glass foam hull, grp boards, tin rig, mylar sails versus epoxy S-glass hull, carbon decks, carbon spars/foils etc). You get what you pay for, and to try to bring the 59er down to 400 prices might kill the performance a bit. I wonder what someone like Hartley Laminates could do with the 59er?

The B14 is altogether a more athletic boat, the beam that gives it the righting moment for performance makes it that more energetic to jump around...

The only thing you have to watch on the 59er is that getting out on the trapeze can be tricky and a couple of metal bars can help in order to kick off for that. hen sheet loads are very low and you reach about 25 knots in a straight line in a force 4, (VMG approx 20 knots) so not sluggish by any means. GRF used to sl*g us off something bad, probably because of that 505 clone he loved to try to sail. Haven´t heard of any Altos doing much recently though... Clap BTW, Julian is IMHO wrong. Dont confuse quality with quantity otherwise you end up going down the 400 route with a lousy kite...  

I´ll get my coat..
Pass the skiff, man!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by fdsailor

Someone has - it's the 59er. Didn't work out for a variety of reasons though, but there is talk in some quarters of it making a return

I´m still sailing mine in Bavaria! GREAT BOAT, super handling and very slippery when wet (hence the name  of mine). Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion... Wink
Pass the skiff, man!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote scotsfinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Graeme call your one the CONstipated... Same old sh*t, stuck up the same old arse, creating the same old wind... ;-)

Awe cumon YW let Grf get on with his new project, it's built a sound foundation and will reach speeds that will produce brown trousers above 20kts ....... Constipation will not be a problem..... May the name should be iGROAN Wink
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