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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Jul 13 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by yellowwelly

Graeme - what are they sailing currently?  We have people (adults) with less 3 years dinghy racing experience well inside the top half of our Laser fleet.  In fairness, they're competitive, have put a lot of time in and are reasonable fit/athletic/light so do well.


You see, in order to answer, it's best to read first what the other person wrote, then you wouldn't come across as a total retard.

So to help those at the back keep up, the 'they' in this particular instance are racing an L3k there was a half assed attempt to get a fleet together a couple of years back, but the L3k is only effective a)If it is a V3k or b) It is bloody windy and raced by competent light crew.

Our Fleet consists of the following.. MPS(1) Contender (2/3)Alto(1)Blaze(1)RS500(2)RS400(2)L3k(2/3)470(1)Vareo(1)Vago(1)Phantom(2)Vision(2)Laser(3-5)Feva (2)MerBandit(1).

ah yes my mistake... you did highlight they were sailing some s*itbox from the 90's that even LPE had the sense to bin off several years ago... you could almost be a museum to that era if you took the EPS out. 

Fancy a 4000 or a 'five tunna' to complete the line up?  

So are you all unhappy?  Or is just the folks in boats that the market has dumped?  I bet the guys in the Merlin are happy.  And the Phantom sailors.  And I bet the Feva and Laser are happy enough... nothing special going on, but why not... gets you out on the water in a boat with a statistically fair handicap as there's plenty of 'em around elsewhere.



Edited by yellowwelly - 01 Jul 13 at 1:28pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 13 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


What is success?


Getting a lucky shift and rounding up front?

Passing a good guy as he's swimming around his MPS at the gybe mark?

Manouvering into a position of calling water and it being given.

Swapping tacks with someone you regard as a better sailor for half a leg...

Eventually actually beating someone you regard as a better sailor..


Success comes in all shapes and sizes, but always coming last, the race finishing long since and you're still a lap behind, being timed out (We never do this) all antidotes against the sport.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 13 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Graeme - what are they sailing currently?  We have people (adults) with less 3 years dinghy racing experience well inside the top half of our Laser fleet.  In fairness, they're competitive, have put a lot of time in and are reasonable fit/athletic/light so do well.


You see, in order to answer, it's best to read first what the other person wrote, then you wouldn't come across as a total retard.

So to help those at the back keep up, the 'they' in this particular instance are racing an L3k there was a half assed attempt to get a fleet together a couple of years back, but the L3k is only effective a)If it is a V3k or b) It is bloody windy and raced by competent light crew.

Our Fleet consists of the following.. MPS(1) Contender (2/3)Alto(1)Blaze(1)RS500(2)RS400(2)L3k(2/3)470(1)Vareo(1)Vago(1)Phantom(2)Vision(2)Laser(3-5)Feva (2)MerBandit(1).

What's more important is the average age which is probably mid to late forties, not many youngsters all grown ups with jobs and sail once or twice a week and very rarely sail other than to race.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 13 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Graeme - what are they sailing currently?  We have people (adults) with less 3 years dinghy racing experience well inside the top half of our Laser fleet.  In fairness, they're competitive, have put a lot of time in and are reasonable fit/athletic/light so do well.
 
That is the other thing, people who start dinghy racing in a committed organised way will have a much steeper improving curve than people who dabble at it.
A few RS400 coaching sessions made a huge difference to us.
Some people are happy just getting afloat and don't need to 'succeed' in the sense of winning.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 13 at 1:06pm
The 400 mostly races as a sub-fleet in fast PY.
So long as there is one other 400 for me to chase I'll probably enjoy my race.
The classes I see as strong at the moment are Laser, solo, Wayfarer, Merlin.
I see D-1's building respectably.
 
GRF's point about relative newcomers 'succeeding':
What is success?
When I'd come back into dinghies fo a year or so, my idea of success was to be in contact with the fast guys for long enough to think I might learn something, and to have a bit of a race against some other people who were also newish to 400's.
As a beginner in an 800, success is about getting around the course without too many swims or crises, and hopefully keeping the good guys in sight.
 
I can't imagine me being competiitve at any other sport, but surely most people measure their success against people who have a similar experience/commitment level?
If I had a go at say Archery or Cycling, would I expect to be beating people who'd done the sport for years after a season of dabbling in it?
Most people enjoy their sport without ever winning or getting near.
'succeeding' in say the London Marathon for 99% is finishing and getting a 'respectable' time.
People do that, enjoy it and don't care that they have no hope of winning or being in the same league as the  winners.  People can enjoy a game of football without worrying that they don't have 1% of the talent of even a Portsmouth player.
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 13 at 1:01pm
Graeme - what are they sailing currently?  We have people (adults) with less 3 years dinghy racing experience well inside the top half of our Laser fleet.  In fairness, they're competitive, have put a lot of time in and are reasonable fit/athletic/light so do well.
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Posts: 223 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 13 at 12:04pm
Our numbers have been steady for years, not steady enough to be complacent, but steady. We used to be GP's and Lasers but now we are Supernova (11), Lightning (5) and Phantom (3). These are regular participants. It is very easy to bung boats in the water and race them. it must be so much harder for sea clubs.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 13 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by winging it

Why should newbies be mid fleet? 



That depends on how long you expect them to be 'newbies' now in your world that can be anything up to 8 years given the number of times I'm still being referred to albeit for ironical effect, but with an element of percieved half belief, whereas other modern sports would heve folk six months in as intermediate improvers. The guys I think would benefit from the Alto are two or three years in, yet still at the back and getting despondent. They're considering an RS500 which would be an end to it, as the retirement of another couple on sunday after three or four capsizes, a couple who used to look forward to strong breeze in their ageing 470 and a very competant helm. Boats like the RS 500 have no place in an intermediates path to improvement imv.

Given we're selling racing here, and folk who race er actually want to succeed at some point..
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 13 at 11:50am
There's growing, and there's surving the current economic crisis and falling participation numbers in the sport in general.... for sure I see a reduction in the number of clubs over the next 20 years.  I don't see launching new classes preventing that, if anything, I see it will accelerate it if the quality of the racing drops to mass handicap, average laps between a Solo, an RS400 and a Foiling Moth as the only sustainable model. 

However, here'a a couple of sea clubs which I've always admired, I haven't seen their balance sheets to say whether they're any good or not financially... but I'd sail at either if I lived near enough.


Stokes Bay 

- 'fast asymmetric handicap fleet' - pretty much MPS and friends according to the results:

http://www.stokesbay-sc.co.uk/result/spring/FASTASYMMETRICDINGHY_SPRINGSUNDAY2013.htm

+ they have a Laser fleet with 20 entries... not bad

Brightlingsea

Fireball, Laser and Merlin fleets- plus cats and handicap
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 13 at 11:43am
oh dear god.....

Newcomers don't need to go out on a limb, they need a class where there is an accessible bank of knowledge, be it verbal or via the internet, with proven techniques and settings that they can use as a starting point.  The fireball class can provide that information, as can the many ex fireball sailors around most clubs up and down the country.  

They also need training and encouragement beyond level 2, as well as management of their expectations.  Why should newbies be mid fleet?  They need training/expereince to move them up, not a faster class!
the same, but different...

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