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your responsibilities as a sailor

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: your responsibilities as a sailor
    Posted: 20 May 13 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Sheetpuller

And why should the club, and the sport in general, gain the negative publicity that derives from an inquest where club officers and safety boat crew have to suit up, shine their shoes and give evidence to show that they weren't at fault for not getting everybody's husband, wife or child out of the oggin before they drowned simply because they didn't take the basic precaution of wearing a PFD?
 
It's that 'one-way/two-way' thing I was banging on about earlier, isn't it?
 

so on this basis, a trapeze harness, an item of sailing apparel we nearly universally accept carries associated, but acceptable levels of risk of entrapment, should be 'banned', just in case there's bad publicity?

In the event of a KO, a BA will not save you.  On a watercraft where speed is great enough to carry sustained risk of a KO, a helmet would be a far better use of safety resources.  That said, I have both a helmet and an impact vest in the back of my truck for windsurfing, I rarely use either.   


Edited by pondmonkey - 20 May 13 at 1:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 1:44pm
Sheetpuller, I edited my post cos I actually remembered that the subject was about sailors responsibilities and I think that it is a sailors responsibility to wear one. Therefore it was actually on topic it was just that I had got sucked into the responsibilities towards their club part of it.

That said I've never been in a situation where the buoyancy aid has been a greater liability than it has been a benefit. If I had then just maybe I might change my mind.

Before you say though that by that time it will be too late, it might also be too late if I don't wear it, so if you don't mind I will continue to wear it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 2:06pm
I'm not sure the KO risk is that relevant. I believe (but could be wrong) that BAs are more about keeping your head out of the water and avoiding secondary drowning than dealing with someone who's unconscious. Of course they also reduce the amount of effort needed to swim, which is also helpful.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 2:07pm
I had to rescue my sister once when she somehow got the tiller extension wedged through the sleeve of the BA and the neck.  We capsized and this left her pinned face down in the water... I ripped the BA open to free her and drag her out of it through the neck gap.  I simply couldn't see under the water, and my hands weren't dexterous enough to undo the buckles and zips and stuff.

Does this mean I won't wear one again?  No.  But I won't pretend they're that bloody amazing either.  




Edited by pondmonkey - 20 May 13 at 2:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by JimC

Of course they also reduce the amount of effort needed to swim,

not strictly true, they reduce the amount of effort needed to tread water in the event you get separated from your hull/board whilst awaiting someone in a RIB to not run you over, however swimming in them is a complete PITA!!!


Edited by pondmonkey - 20 May 13 at 2:09pm
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Sheetpuller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sheetpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah

Sheetpuller, I edited my post cos I actually remembered that the subject was about sailors responsibilities and I think that it is a sailors responsibility to wear one. Therefore it was actually on topic it was just that I had got sucked into the responsibilities towards their club part of it.

That said I've never been in a situation where the buoyancy aid has been a greater liability than it has been a benefit. If I had then just maybe I might change my mind.

Before you say though that by that time it will be too late, it might also be too late if I don't wear it, so if you don't mind I will continue to wear it.
 
Maxi, please re-read my post!  Perhaps my wording isn't the clearest, but I was supporting the idea that wearing a buoyancy aid is part of a sailor's responsibility toward his/her fellow club members!  I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet here? Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sheetpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

Originally posted by Sheetpuller

And why should the club, and the sport in general, gain the negative publicity that derives from an inquest where club officers and safety boat crew have to suit up, shine their shoes and give evidence to show that they weren't at fault for not getting everybody's husband, wife or child out of the oggin before they drowned simply because they didn't take the basic precaution of wearing a PFD?
 
It's that 'one-way/two-way' thing I was banging on about earlier, isn't it?
 

so on this basis, a trapeze harness, an item of sailing apparel we nearly universally accept carries associated, but acceptable levels of risk of entrapment, should be 'banned', just in case there's bad publicity?

In the event of a KO, a BA will not save you.  On a watercraft where speed is great enough to carry sustained risk of a KO, a helmet would be a far better use of safety resources.  That said, I have both a helmet and an impact vest in the back of my truck for windsurfing, I rarely use either.   
 
Not sure I follow your logic there.  It isn't an either/or situation.  To my mind a buoyancy aid is an essential item of kit for sailing any dinghy;  a trap harness is an essential item for sailing a dinghy equipped with a trapeze.  When I used to crew an FD I wore both without problem.  For some, a helmet may seem like a great idea too.  Probably not essential like the BA though.
 
Do you not agree that a sailor has some level of responsibility to look after the interests of the club whose facilities he uses?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by Sheetpuller

Originally posted by maxibuddah

Sheetpuller, I edited my post cos I actually remembered that the subject was about sailors responsibilities and I think that it is a sailors responsibility to wear one. Therefore it was actually on topic it was just that I had got sucked into the responsibilities towards their club part of it. That said I've never been in a situation where the buoyancy aid has been a greater liability than it has been a benefit. If I had then just maybe I might change my mind. Before you say though that by that time it will be too late, it might also be too late if I don't wear it, so if you don't mind I will continue to wear it.



 
Maxi, please re-read my post!  Perhaps my wording isn't the clearest, but I was supporting the idea that wearing a buoyancy aid is part of a sailor's responsibility toward his/her fellow club members!  I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet here? Big smile


Ah ha, you obviously missed the invisibly punctuation that would have separated the answer to your post and the rest that wasn't. Apologies for that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 2:44pm
I wonder whether anyone has any stats to show whether the massive rise in the wearing of BAs over the last 20 years has made any difference to the number of drownings in the sport?

I've sailed on rivers in light winds in summer where everyone in a sailing dinghy has had to wear a BA. But the kids swinging off a rope into the river aren't, the half cut people in the hired put put boat aren't, the fisherman in waders isn't, the cows standing in the water aren't - yet the chances of me drowning were probably less than all but the cow. Why shouldn't have been my choice?

On the other hand, the wind is up, the boat is heeling, chances of a capsize is likely, rescue cover is going to be stretched - hoist the Y flag at the beginning of the day, BA wearing is now compulsory, so sailors will wear them and be responsible members of the club.

Sailing on a larger expanse of water (even a fairly small lake) where you may well be out of easy wading/swimming distance of the bank and out of sight of other water users, then I can see the sense of having BA at all times rule.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Sheetpuller

 
Do you not agree that a sailor has some level of responsibility to look after the interests of the club whose facilities he uses?

I do.  However I do not agree that a BA is an essential piece of sailing equipment.  It should be optional in my opinion.    

My logic on the harness is based on the following general assumptions:

- a BA is 'good' as it has a calculated positive effect on the risk of sailing dinghies (floatation)
- a TH is 'bad' as it has a calculated negative effect on the risk of sailing dinghies (entrapment)

If we all accept that a BA should be mandatory, then logic would decree that a TH should be banned.

I've heard far more stories of entrapment with harnesses than I've heard of positive stories about BAs saving lives.  I guess that's to do with imbalance in the media and the mawkish curiosity of humans as displayed so disrespectfully on some of the more recent threads concerning the AC.

I personally believe our assumption that a BA is always a positive item to the risk assessment is flawed.  It can do as much harm as good imho.  That is based on direct experience, extensive windsurfing and reports from wide-winged boats (18ft skiff sailors).   However I wouldn't be so bold as tell someone not to wear one.  It should be a personal choice, not a matter for RRS or club by-laws.
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