New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: your responsibilities as a sailor
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

your responsibilities as a sailor
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1213141516 21>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Dougal View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 09
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 556 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: your responsibilities as a sailor
    Posted: 20 May 13 at 10:42am
Originally posted by pondmonkey



Originally posted by Dougal

I also wouldn't want to have to jump in after someone, or have to pull out a dead body, because that person felt it was their right not to wear one.

Then don't do it.  That is your right. We are not obliged to offer assistance in such a manner, we simply do it out of ethical & moral norms and a fundamental part of human kindness in most of us.  Whether they chose to wear a PFD is no different to whether they made a bad call sailing a boat in conditions that caused whatever incident the first place.   The time for reflections on such matters tend to be a while after the event, not in the moment of trying to assist and recover someone.



I don't disagree at all, but I would be the person that jumped in to help hence my opinion. I'll stop there as this probably isn't the place to solve the ethics and morality issues of the human race (much better done in a bar...)
What could possibly go wrong?
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 10:44am
Originally posted by Rupert


Do we, as sailors, have a responsibility, above and beyond society's norms, to show children a good example?Personally, I think we do, so wear a BA even when I don't have to (there is, or was, the odd club left, mainly on narrow rivers), but I don't see why that has to be a sailing law, and if others feel differently, it is their right.Our Juniors have to wear helmets up to when they have completed stage 4, yet I feel no compulsion to follow suit. However, I do wear a bike helmet. I guess I take booms less seriously than lorries, and want my children to wear bike helmets, yet I'm not convinced by the helmets when sailing arguement.


Good point and one I take and have been known to comply with regarding buoyancy as to helmet, I do prefer when being clouted by a boom as happens quite frequently (even yesterday helping someone up the beach) to have the comfort of a helmet in place, I'll often wear one but no buoyancy then that's my preference.

More and more yotties particularly, in those giant cat things that are always going over wear them so you can point at them to encourage kids, I think they're more important than buoyancy personally, then what would I know?
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 10:47am
Originally posted by winging it

which takes us neatly back to responsibilities as a club - we largely expect to get safety cover provide, and we assume that safety cover is competent, but is that fair?  Moreover, does the club have an obligation to the safety crews to ensure their training is up to date, and what form should tha training take, should the volunteers pay for it, or should it be free for thoise doing that duty?


I think it should be part and parcel of club training, why wouldn't we want everyone around us to be up to speed on what to do if any of us gets into a pickle? Having said that, when those that would train us come down and teach complete bollox, then what should we do?
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 10:51am
Originally posted by tick

This is sort of off topic...or is it? On Saturday we were sailing at another local club. This club has been established for many years like ours which is a couple of miles away. The club in question has a reservoir buried in a valley with the boat park and club house the wrong side of the dam. Wind is horrible and access is horrible. The club house has its charms but is falling down. Membership consists mainly of elderly established members a few good juniors and 'youth club' juniors on a Friday night. There are four clubs in the area and three of  clubs very close one of which has already failed. We were recently given money by Sport England to install mains electricity and because of good management our club is smart and convenient with good facilities. The club in question has applied for a grant to build a new clubhouse and they are hopeful of getting it. In my opinion this would be ridiculous in a shrinking sport. Some things are not worth preserving and there are other facilities available (us). I was not entirely convinced that we deserved the money for our electricity. It was given to us so that we could increase participation, we are now an 'Inspired Facility' but will our membership increase because of it. Does providing comfy facilities get the fat kids off the xbox?


This is clearly a past hangover from the time when the 'we don't sail that class in our club if you want to sail that better go somewhere else' mantra in times of plenty forced that pace. These days being more inclusive to the diverse nature of the number and types of craft folk end up ebaying themsleves into would seem to my mind to be more important, hence fixing that PY race thing is actually very important for clubs in the future.
Back to Top
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by winging it

which takes us neatly back to responsibilities as a club - we largely expect to get safety cover provide, and we assume that safety cover is competent, but is that fair? Yes

 Moreover, does the club have an obligation to the safety crews to ensure their training is up to date, yes

and what form should tha training take, Powerboat driving training plus how to rescue people and boats, with practice on a regular basis

should the volunteers pay for it, No

or should it be free for thoise doing that duty? yes


As club members, we should expect that services provided by the club, even through club volunteers, are up to the job, and of course it should be free - we are asking people to give up their time to do this, having already paid their subs, so the costs should be borne by the membership as a whole.


yep, agree with all that.  just interested to see what others think.
the same, but different...

Back to Top
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 11:38am
Originally posted by iGRF

 These days being more inclusive to the diverse nature of the number and types of craft folk end up ebaying themsleves into would seem to my mind to be more important, hence fixing that PY race thing is actually very important for clubs in the future.

Or alternatively you could say PY is 'as fixed as it's going to be.  Even despite my loathing of it as a proper race discipline, it's a lot better than it was.  It would be better if all clubs returned, especially those solely reliant on it for their only racing.

The trick of course is to try and guide our would be members into boats that would suit them at our clubs, or if they're hell bent on one particular type of boat, then recommend an alternative club which might suit their needs better if it is not our own.

Someone I know said to me, 'I see your club does asymmetric racing every weekend'.  (They had looked at our website).  Rather than 'close the deal' and hook them into membership, I recommended they come up for a few weekends, pay the day sailing rate and join in with the asymmetric racing going on.  

'Try before you buy' 

They turned up, went for a day sail, realised there were no other asymmetric boats out racing (despite our website and a good day's forecast) and promptly joined another club.  Pitsford I believe...  

Point here being, I've got split loyalties.... tell the truth (yep, there's nearly no asymmetric racing (W/L) despite what our website would have you believe) and in doing so be disloyal to the club effort to grow members.  Or attempt to get them into membership, hoping that the sight of them in their boat, sailing around on their own every weekend (if they can be bothered to show up) will encourage others out?
Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 12:51pm
While I expect support boat drivers to be competent, I don't think that means 'formally qualified'.
Perhaps it a bit bit different living around here, but I'd trust most of our youngsters over somebody who has just acquired a couple of RYA tickets anyday. A lot of our members do hold pwerboat and safety boat qualifications, but most members who sail regulary and do a couple of RIB duties a year are just as good. I've met a few sailing school types with all the bits of paper and years of experience who should only be allowed near Bosuns and Roto-baths.
Back to Top
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

've met a few sailing school types with all the bits of paper and years of experience who should only be allowed near Bosuns and Roto-baths.

yes, I knew a guy at competitor uni who was nicknamed S.I.mon... and 'S.I.mon Says....' was often a point of their ridicule and actually became one of their uni SC's favourite drinking game when he wasn't around.  

He couldn't sail for toffee (saying a lot coming from me) but his boat handling (power and dinghy) was just a liability.   He once took out a Laser II mast dragging it still capsized back to the beach in the shoredump, and on another occasion he fell overboard trying to urinate off the back of the anchored committee boat, apparently he 'hadn't realised' how big the swell was....


Fully ticketed-up courtesy of the Sea Scouts naturally.   LOL


Edited by pondmonkey - 20 May 13 at 1:05pm
Back to Top
Sheetpuller View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 22 Feb 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 114 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sheetpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by winging it

Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by winging it

which takes us neatly back to responsibilities as a club - we largely expect to get safety cover provide, and we assume that safety cover is competent, but is that fair? Yes

 Moreover, does the club have an obligation to the safety crews to ensure their training is up to date, yes

and what form should tha training take, Powerboat driving training plus how to rescue people and boats, with practice on a regular basis

should the volunteers pay for it, No

or should it be free for thoise doing that duty? yes


As club members, we should expect that services provided by the club, even through club volunteers, are up to the job, and of course it should be free - we are asking people to give up their time to do this, having already paid their subs, so the costs should be borne by the membership as a whole.


yep, agree with all that.  just interested to see what others think.
 
Maxibuddah asked for this not to go off topic into a buoyancy aids discussion, and I agree with him on that - BUT:
 
Aren't we talking about two sides of the same coin here?
 
In my earlier post I moaned about how 'member' had morphed into 'customer' and the changed relationship between sailor and club that has resulted from that.  I agree with all the points outlined above but they sum to what we should expect as 'customers' - "these are the sorts of service levels that I as a customer am entitled to in return for my membership fee"  But as 'members' should we not expect to meet the club halfway?  Is the club wholly responsible for our safety on the water?  What happens to the poor volunteer, or rota'd safety boat crew when an absolute hoolie comes down the Solent and boats are capsized all over the place and half the people in the water aren't wearing a PFD because it was nice and sunny when they left the beach?  Or even worse, because X and Y weren't wearing one and they didn't want to look like a wuss?  And why should the club, and the sport in general, gain the negative publicity that derives from an inquest where club officers and safety boat crew have to suit up, shine their shoes and give evidence to show that they weren't at fault for not getting everybody's husband, wife or child out of the oggin before they drowned simply because they didn't take the basic precaution of wearing a PFD?
 
It's that 'one-way/two-way' thing I was banging on about earlier, isn't it?
 


Edited by Sheetpuller - 20 May 13 at 1:29pm
I'm not arguing. I'm explaining why I'm right.

Merlin Rocket 3545 - 'Smooth Operator'

Sprint 15 1342 - 'Still Crazy'

Back to Top
SoggyBadger View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 26 Oct 10
Location: The Wild Wood
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 13 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

While I expect support boat drivers to be competent, I don't think that means 'formally qualified'.


Indeed not. On another forum someone was saying that one of their members has no formal qualification in driving powerboats. He is, however, the retired coxwain of the local IRB. Probably knows more about driving powerboats and rescuing people than all the RYA coaches put together.
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1213141516 21>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy