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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 May 13 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by blaze720

  Promote your own class by all means but maybe it is best to stick to that and cut out the oblique references to 'other' classes and their efforts to meet their owners wishes.  

Wow.  Back up a little!  I was taking the Mick.  Just around the moaning on both class forums about the changes within the classes!  I have not promoted my class in this thread as I have a commercial interest and, let’s be fair the RS100 owners thread is not the place to promote the D1 now is it?!

 

Who is it best for?  Certainly not for me or 90% of the other forum contributors.  So why should I cut it out?  Both the Blaze and the 100 have had the exact same criticism as to the proposed or passed rule changes.  I have no agenda or axe to grind with either class to be honest.  in fact if you jump of the high horse and read my posts again you will see I complemented the class on the introduction of the carbon mast.    The Blaze obviously satisfy its niche, which is fine, but please don’t get all defensive because I didn't really like it.  Each to everyone’s own, if we all liked the same thing it would be a very boring world. But to say its developed exactly how the owners want contradicts some of the forum traffic.  But hey it was a democratic vote and all.

 

As mentioned previously I hope the 100 & the Blaze for that matter fulfill their owners wishes and expectations.  The more people on the water racing the better for the sport.  So please understand I was only trolling  taking the pi$$ a little, the forum after all has been very quiet of late

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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

If there's no 'controversy' then we can just assume there's no requirement to tighten up the wording, nor any requirement to seek a re-draft before publishing it?  'Controversy' is strong word of course, and you won't find me saying that in my recent posts.  I've just said the fleets will split.  Which they will, if you read the wording of the proposed change.

I guess the truth is the class majority on 8.4s has spoken- they want the 8.4 fleet to be one fleet on its own, hence the proposal.  If the fatties don't move across, so what... better to have a race of 30 on the 8.4 rig than 40 in the 'RS100' fleet.   That's their decision of course, one facilitated by a lack of control over these (inevitable) issues from the outset.

As for the 7.4 sailors- well they didn't even get a consideration.  I guess their arms were too short to be seen at the AGM.    God knows what would happen if someone pulled together another rig- maybe a 9 meter 'coastal' rig to bridge the gap????

I don't really care that much, it just seems a shame to look in from the outside and see the class self destruct.  They're certainly not growing judging from the entries in the events and effectively cutting the class down to the 8.4 rig will certainly not bolster its image at club level- having its arse handed to it by Lasers around the cans!!!!

Let us not forget the amazing positivity there was when this was launched- now it's just another boring class association bogged down with factions rather than growing and embracing new faces, even podgy ones that can hold their beer...

This quote pretty much summed up my view at the time too.  Times change.  That's not controversy, it's just life.

Originally posted by ChrisC

I would much prefer this arrangement - both fleets racing together. 
Ultimately it is going to be the only way to truly test if the rig sizes actually 
perform differently in the same conditions - plus it will make for much 
better big fleet racing. 



 Good to see all these views from non-100 owners, and James doing his usual sterling stirring job. It's nice to know you are all so worried about us. (and the Blaze too of course)

Now if we can knock a few myths into touch.

Firstly, far from having my arse handed to me by Lasers RTC, it's the other way around. Even on Frensham my PYS results are totally comparable against the lasers to that I would achieve if I sailed my own laser. I beat the guys I regularly beat and its tight against the guys I am close to. Not occasionally, but consistently, week in week out. Even with the latest PYS increased differential. So please don't judge everyone by your own standards James! My guess is that we are also sailing the boats far more effectively than 3 years ago when we first took delivery.

Secondly, there never have been that many (consistently) travelling 10.2s. There is a strong 10.2 fleet at HISC, but they don't travel. Since Paul and Sam, both 10.2 boys, left RS and the fleet we've probably gained a new regular 10.2 and lost one. The 10.2s have always been in the minority. I can think of a couple of others who have decided they prefer sailing the 8.4, probably because they were under weight (or height) for the 10.2

But what has become clear is that a 10.2 sailed by a 92kg sailor will beat an 8.4 sailed equally well by someone of 80kg in nearly all conditions - and this is reflected in the PYS. In 8 knots of breeze, the difference is significant. All this is hardly a surprise, indeed it would be a miracle if it were not thus.

But it does create anomalies in the results and attitudes to them. Some sailors are n't bothered which rig is ahead of them, some see each rig as a different race. I don't see this a calamitous - and it's easy to fix by presenting the results both ways and us continuing to start together. Each sailor can then hang their hat on which ever set they prefer - either is fine by me. If we get to 20 of each rig type, then will be the time to split starts perhaps. But there will always be ebbs and flows. At the recent Pwllheli Laser Qualifier, there were 26 standard rigs and 82 radials. 

Personally, I don't think the proposal is quite right yet (witness silence viz 7.2s for example) but at least it recognises the issue and is trying to deal with it fairly. Trying to perfect that on a boat than covers a crew weight range of 30kg and delivers such amazing sailing is far from an action of tearing the class apart. Are we not allowed to adapt and evolve?

Finally for now, for info, RS tell me that overseas, the vast majority of sales are of the 10.2 rig - perhaps they have less wind on average than us in those locations! And I will continue to use mine and try and get the rig 18 inches further up beyond the wind shadow of the weeds trees
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by blaze720

Promote your own class by all means but maybe it is best to stick to that and cut out the oblique references to 'other' classes and their efforts to meet their owners wishes.  

so it doesn't warrant discussions in the public domain.... maybe if the class had adopted the carbon stick light years ago then others would have joined.  

perhaps if they'd adopted a kite this very thread wouldn't exist... you'd have blown the comp (vareo / MX ray) out of the water!!!!

Now by saying that, I'm not saying you're wrong... christ knows the sailing world are a conservative bunch, a bird in hand n' all that; and I remain utterly unconvinced that a hiker with a kite for club sailing RTC is even worth the aggro having owned them now... but to say we all have 'stick to our own classes' before commenting on something would offer a very bland, and rather redundant communal meeting place... 
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 5:36pm
I have tried a Blaze Mike.  Several times, nice enough boat, but not for me.  Not sure a Halo would float my boat, so to speak either.

Well we figured that one out !    Enjoy what you have got of course... seriously.   Promote your own class by all means but maybe it is best to stick to that and cut out the oblique references to 'other' classes and their efforts to meet their owners wishes.   I hope the 100 evolves exactly as the owners want now - in fact just as the Blaze has done over the last decade and a half. 

Halo is a minority interest WITHIN the Blaze class ... 'heavies' have them but if you are not the right weight you will be slower than with a Blaze rig.  They race at club level mostly but most also race Blaze rigs in the circuit and championships.  Is there a problem with that ?  I see it as a possible parallel to ... erm 'some other' classes.  

Hell, I've just had a thought ...  is the 100 now also going the same sort of way ? ..  If so well done that class !

Mike L.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by fab100

The key point is that the racing is at least as tight as ever, even when it was blowing old boots at times at POSH last w/e. In one race in particular, places 4-9 were spread across only 4 or so boat lengths - and first and second not that far away either.

that's good to hear... interesting the RS Class Association have published the results without any splits on this event.  


From an external perspective that looks like 14 guys all racing together... i.e. GOOD

Of course, if the racing would be so much better if you weren't racing together and there were what, 10 on 8.4s and a 4 on 10.2... well, it doesn't look so good imho.

It's a shame really- the 300 guys trod this path before the 100 and came up with a viable working solution.  Seems a dumb-ass move to try and do something different, unless the agenda really is to phase out the 10.2 rig now Paul's left.
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 4:38pm
If there's no 'controversy' then we can just assume there's no requirement to tighten up the wording, nor any requirement to seek a re-draft before publishing it?  'Controversy' is strong word of course, and you won't find me saying that in my recent posts.  I've just said the fleets will split.  Which they will, if you read the wording of the proposed change.

I guess the truth is the class majority on 8.4s has spoken- they want the 8.4 fleet to be one fleet on its own, hence the proposal.  If the fatties don't move across, so what... better to have a race of 30 on the 8.4 rig than 40 in the 'RS100' fleet.   That's their decision of course, one facilitated by a lack of control over these (inevitable) issues from the outset.

As for the 7.4 sailors- well they didn't even get a consideration.  I guess their arms were too short to be seen at the AGM.    God knows what would happen if someone pulled together another rig- maybe a 9 meter 'coastal' rig to bridge the gap????

I don't really care that much, it just seems a shame to look in from the outside and see the class self destruct.  They're certainly not growing judging from the entries in the events and effectively cutting the class down to the 8.4 rig will certainly not bolster its image at club level- having its arse handed to it by Lasers around the cans!!!!

Let us not forget the amazing positivity there was when this was launched- now it's just another boring class association bogged down with factions rather than growing and embracing new faces, even podgy ones that can hold their beer...

This quote pretty much summed up my view at the time too.  Times change.  That's not controversy, it's just life.

Originally posted by ChrisC

I would much prefer this arrangement - both fleets racing together. 
Ultimately it is going to be the only way to truly test if the rig sizes actually 
perform differently in the same conditions - plus it will make for much 
better big fleet racing. 
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 4:37pm
You stated people had other agendas, im not sure anyone does.  Not sure where in my tongue in cheek post which may i add links off my other post has any kind of agenda?  Nothing wrong with airing any thoughts you have on a matter, anyones opinion is valid as it is just that an opinion! 

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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

Originally posted by getafix

IMO, a mix of jealousy and resistance to change by a minority, shouldn't stifle progress for the majority.  

The Blaze needed a carbon stick and they have two sizes of sail on offer.  

RS100 has a carbon mast (thankfully) and they have 3 different sizes of sail, obviously feel the need to have a results format sorted out, ahead of regattas.

Fail to see how either class is 'split' or in 'crisis'.

Frankly that's a complete over dramatisation of the situation, perhaps others have agenda's here....
What a load of nonsense! what possible agenda would anyone have?  So i can only concluide you are aiming that at me?  If so re read my previous posts.  If not then please clarify?  Whatever the 100 fleet decide is entirely up to them.  It has no effect on what happens in my fleet.  We are not in any way interested in what does or doesn't happen in the 100 fleet.  Its almost as ridiculous as saying the Merlins are bothered by rule changes in the 400 fleet, or the Musto's by the 700.  The D1 is growing nicely and organically, we enjoy racing 100's as much as we enjoy racing other single handed assy classes.  However from the posts on the 100 forum one thing is clear though that something needs to be done, if not then why would the class be looking at a rule change?

 

Frankly your post is ridiculous unless you are trying to dramatise the situation and create another row?


Row dear chap, not I, unless you don't think this is provocative, you might remember, you posted it yesterday at 2.21, it's on page 180 of this thread...

"I seem to remember a few years ago Mike being very vocal about not want ing to split what they had by introducing a kite.  So they launched that massively succesful new Halo class....Now with Carbon masts the class is looking more fragmented.  Lets resurect the Blaze kite thread as well, forum has been to quite lately." 

.. I merely offered an opinion that others were stirring (Jimbo has made lavish use of the word "split" in his recent posts) where there really wasn't that much controversy in the first place, if any at all, it's a forum, as long as it's polite, what's wrong with expressing a view or two, or three come to that?
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 2:40pm
I have tried a Blaze Mike.  Several times, nice enough boat, but not for me.  Not sure a Halo would float my boat, so to speak either.

Russ

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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 2:10pm
Hi Ruscoe

No problem ... !  Carbon was always on the cards in the long term and suits the boat .. as it does on just about every other boat.  But is/was a tough decision for the class - same as for everyone.

Halo has a minority following to date (approx 15% of Blazes have this rig as well now) as an alternative to regular mainstream 10.4m Blaze racing.  It is approximately 11.5m so for most will be a bit of a challenge.  You do not need to be 95+kg but it sure helps .. and it is really for the larger guys out there.   They all race Blazes but enjoy a bit of an alternative 'thrash' from time to time at least at club level.   In time there will no doubt be demand for a 'heavies' championship and we will support them.   The thing about the Halo sail is if you are right for it you can plane upwind for much of the time.

I'm just over 80kg and have a laugh with it and it is easy enough to get around with Halo in almost anything but .. but race competitively in stronger winds ?   I'll stick to the Blaze's 10.4m.  Wednesday evening pursuits though ?  Hell yes - a lot of fun !

Come and try in either mode some time .. you are very welcome.

Mike L.
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