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National Handicap For Cruisers (NHC) |
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RS400atC 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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 Topic: National Handicap For Cruisers (NHC)Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 5:13pm |
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The problem with each club having its own rating system is that they are mostly apparently based on either blind guesswork and/or plagiarising IRC ratings. This leaves the boats with IRC ratings paying for the whole system. I don't know what an IRC rating costs now, but it was getting to be a barrier to some people last time I ws involved. |
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blueboy
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Joined: 27 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 512 |
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Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 11:36am |
Why is that such a bad thing? Most of the major central Solent clubs manage their own club handicap system, alongside IRC. They haven't used PY in donkey's years. I'm not aware of this being seen as a problem by those who race in club handicap. Race with ISC, use ISC handicap. Race with RSYC, use RSYC handicap. What's the issue? If they want to take their racing a bit more seriously, they can go to IRC. It sounds like you want something like PHRF and its Board structure in the UK. Listening to how the Americans moan and groan about it, I'd say thanks but no thanks. It seems to me the mix of freely allocated club handicaps plus IRC addresses the need quite nicely already. |
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hayden60
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Joined: 15 Apr 13 Location: Mersea Online Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
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Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 11:11am |
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“I appreciate your scenario and
agree that NHC for that specific event will not work as well as a longer series
of 5 races or more.” This is an email quote from Bas
at the RYA in response to my request how to handicap a new 3 race series over 3
weekends involving up to six clubs in the rivers Blackwater and Colne. In other
words any regatta series with 5 or less races now has no workable handicap
series other than IRC. Well done RYA trying to bring
our sport together a great own goal! “I can very much assure you that
for the past five years the RYA Technical Department have been working
incredibly hard in trying to coax data out of clubs with many weeks spent on
the phone cold calling clubs and trying to prise a return out of them.” Another quote from Bas. I have
spoken with six clubs on the east coast none of who have been chased in recent
years and the RYAs own representatives were unaware this was happening. Mersea 6 years ago with the help
of Mike Urwin at RORC introduced dual scoring for our main weekend racing which
had been exclusively IRC. We formed a handicap committee with a proper
constitution which allowed representations by skippers with a grievance and
based on PY, local knowledge of the boats and crews, and good old common sense
set LH handicaps. This allowed anyone to come and have a go and from this the
fleet has grown and sprouted a white sail series. This has been a success and
would recommend it to any club. Unfortunately RYA have withdrawn the national
standard so either we need to get them to re-instate it, we adopt Byron or
start a whole new national data base in order to stop other than IRC racing
becoming very insular within each club. Come on RYA before it does to
much damage let’s start again with proper consultations and gain a consensus on
a way forward which unites rather than divides our sport. |
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blueboy
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Joined: 27 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 512 |
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Posted: 14 Apr 13 at 7:02pm |
There is not really a vast amount of OD left for boats with beds. There's J109s and now-ancient S/38s. Quite a change from the scene of 20 years ago when there were huge numbers of S/33s and before that Impalas, OOD34s etc. |
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RS400atC
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Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Posted: 14 Apr 13 at 3:24pm |
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People might 'win' on personal handicap systems, but they won't get any respect for it.
I expect it won't matter, as clubs will copy what seems to happen in Solent clubs: Boats have 'club' ratings which are a bit like somebody's best guess at how they'd rate on IRC. |
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Oli
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Joined: 23 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1020 |
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Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 11:13pm |
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no one paying, just think its right thats all. just as much as people think its wrong. the internet has a higher ratio of people moaning than it does of praising, i like to buck the trend where possible...
as for same spec if you have been to or go to the talk held by the rya / rorc you will hear that even the od yachts have varying differences in build and final sailing spec. nhc is a personal handicap yes so like i have said before it will put everyone on an even keel but those that are consistent will shine through. if you want hard and fast results go into irc, if youre really worried do od. dont worry at what it will, may, might, wont do and get out there try it for a season alongside your own system and see what happens, if more people turn up and sail then surely its a good thing? it is after saying "come along and have a go, youve got a chance of winning". if its no good for you and your club then fair enough drop it, but that doesnt mean its bad for others or that its bad to try in the first place.
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craiggo
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Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 6:23pm |
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Slop idol, who's paying you?
How can NHC ever be fair for people sailing the same spec, same type of boat? |
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Oli
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Joined: 23 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1020 |
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Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 5:19pm |
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the potential of a class is its achieved performance, with the best result coming from the best sailors surely? thats how i view it anyway.
no one inputted into the old system, no data, with this new nhc they have thousands of designs data there to be used. its a tweak of an old rating rule used in an updated progressive format. i believe the nhc will be a level rating for ability with the best (most consistent wining over a sustained period) thereby giving everyone a chance but still rewarding those that put in the most. for the truly bothered by rating rules and handicaps od racing is there, you just need the pockets to do it.
also nothing stopping people running nhc alongside there own local handicap system or irc etc etc Edited by slop_idol - 12 Apr 13 at 5:20pm |
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RS400atC
Really should get out more
Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 4:59pm |
Actually, the need to change is forced by the RYA's slow shift over time from PY intending to represent the potential of a class, to representing achieved performance. I think what is needed, is for people to get together and work on the old system, using the data that is available to estimate the performance potential of designs and classes. Fundamentally, we need to decide whether the idea is that everyone has an equal chance of winning, or whether the best team should most often win. |
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Oli
Really should get out more
Joined: 23 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1020 |
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Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 4:38pm |
how do you know, have you tried using it yet? the base number only applies once in your regular club season at the beginning. so the first few races as it gets to grips with your performances it may be inaccurate but the more you race the better it becomes (que stats geeks with "not enough data" drivel), still better than the base number and also better than some random person changing the number because they feel like it. there are two versions of calculation, a club / season formula and a regatta formula, so when turning up to a regatta the base number will jump faster than in regular season mode. you can ask to use your current season number at a regatta and its up to the organizers to allow it or not. i really struggle to understand peoples adversity to this new handicap system, if you were using the py scheme as the rya had laid out then there wouldn't be a need to change, but cruiser racers didn't, so here it is, a good fix to a problem that shouldn't of existed. its no harder now to get results and keep up to date than before just take the times upload them and it processes the results, easy. just because you have been doing something for years doesn't mean its right. just my 2 pence worth. Edited by slop_idol - 12 Apr 13 at 4:40pm |
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