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Advertising via sail numbers? 55

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sandgrounder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sandgrounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55
    Posted: 18 Feb 13 at 10:33am
Originally posted by The Phantom Menace

I think we're all a bit tired of you banging on for the last 50+ pages trying to rubbish businesses you don't carry favour for.  You've obviously got some hidden personal agenda to deal with.

Here's an Idea.....If you don't like them......Don't use them....SIMPLES!!

Do you have the same problem with the house, car, kitchen appliance you buy/  Do you always need to know the directors name and address?

Move on please you're getting very boring!
 
Welcome to the forum.
I too have purchased and used sails from Speed Sails over many years since the '80s, and have been very pleased with both the sails and the service.
I am similarly unhappy to see the Speed Sails brand being dragged through the mud.
I would never "rubbish" a company or brand, either on a public forum or elsewhere, and I haven't done so during the protracted course of this thread.
However, I am aware that the Speed Sails brand has changed hands over recent years, on at least one occasion, and I would like to make an informed decision with respect to a long overdue sail purchase, hence my question, which remains un-answered.
This thread has served to highlight some important issues which I wasn't previously aware of, and for that I am thankful.
Happy Sailing. 
 
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 13 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by 2547

The sails have no signature on them, you can see that from the photos.

The legality of the sails was know to be questionable and the UKFA has made a stand.

These guys should know better than to compete in this event with these sails unmeasured when the UKFA considers the sails not to be legal.

It is simple. I stand by my statement many pages back. The whole situation is shabby and is casting a poor light on all stakeholders.

Did you miss the part where other Fireball sails which are manufactured using the same method (i.e. 'load path' or 'tape drive') have been measured and approved by a class measurer?

Different people will interpret the same rule in a different way. This is why classes have a Technical Committee so issues such as this can be clarified. Hats off to Graham who clearly did his homework prior to making his sails. I have no doubt he probably presented that to the person who measured his sails to save any confusion over the cloth/method he has used.

The UKFA Technical man has confirmed that he believes these are not legal and has published a statement to that effect. Perhaps he was unaware of the existance of other set of sails made using this process which have been measured and signed off as class legal.

Do also bear in mind that this statement was posted after the event.

Do not forget we are also still unsure if the sails were actually measured by a class measurer or not. Just because you cannot see a signature on the photo does not mean they have not been done (might be on the other side from where the photo was taken).

Any more comments like the above quote are merely speculation at this time.

I do agree that this entire situation is shabby though and the statement made by the UKFA does seem like a knee jerk reaction especially given what else has now come to light.


Edited by jeffers - 18 Feb 13 at 1:28pm
Paul
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2547 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 13 at 1:31pm
I did see the postings about the other sails. That one has no case to answer his sails were measured, even if UKFA subsequently seem to disagree with who ever signed them. 

The 555 boats sails do not look to be signed and if they were I am sure we would know about it by now. 

The fireball is an ISAF class and they should seek a formal interpretation on the sails to close the issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 13 at 1:33pm
I agree there are still too many unknowns that leave this a little messy, which does none of those involved any favours.
The more official statements served to stop misinterpretation, but didn't increase the clarity. I've also not seen a definitive statement that any of the sails in question were measured by a class measurer and signed off as such.
I'm hoping the parties involved are actually talking to each other so that they can clear this up in due course. In my book, a genuine mistake by one party or another is an acceptable conclusion if that is the truth.


Edited by rb_stretch - 18 Feb 13 at 1:40pm
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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 13 at 1:43pm
Measurers are not always perfect! I had an experience a few years ago. A well known international class had changed the way they measured sails (something to do with how they fixed the position of the mid-height measurment). Depending on whether the old or the new system was used there was a visible difference in the sailsmade to measure. A sailmaker friend therefore arrived at the championship with 2 mainsails, one to the old sysytem, one to the new. He asked the ISAF measure present how he was measuring the sails. Measurer was using old system, mainly because class had not informed him of new system.

Sailmaker and measurer went in to conclave as they re-read rules, measured both sails which both measured, (or not) depending on method used.

So - who measured sails, using which measurment documents, which interpretation...

Measurement issues - a Jury's nightmare
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 13 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by gordon


Measurement issues - a Jury's nightmare

but not for an internet kangaroo court it would seem.

So to ask the question, plain and simple, once more, 'were Fireball 555 sails officially measured?'

I think we can assume, given the official statements presented via Mark, the answer is almost certainly 'no'. 

Once a mistake, two times careless....  three times, well that would be belligerent and disrespectful in the extreme, so isn't it good to know there won't be a repeat of this in the future?




Edited by pondmonkey - 18 Feb 13 at 2:45pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 13 at 3:12pm
Dunno, I think the more interesting question is "when could the sailors have known the sails weren't legal?" if indeed they are definitively not legal.

When one considers the Merlin episode the illegality of the sails seems to have been widely publicised before the event, and no-one seems to have been in any doubt about it, therefore they were right to retire.

This one seems a bit more complicated. The website statement from the Fireball Measurer seems to postdate the event, and there seems to be at the least some evidence that the competitors had reason to suppose that the sails were legit and would pass measurement.

Personally I'd find it hard to convice someone of a gross breach of sportsmanship in those circumstances. I think an awful lot of people would be in trouble if they could get penalised for not yet having got round to having their perfectly legal sails measured. Come to think of it I'm not sure I've had my last set of Canoe rags measured yet.

There are a number of lessons from this, not the least of which being that Speed Sails need to considerably get their act together on clearing experimental design sails with measurers and it may be the FB association needs to work on communications.

Edited by JimC - 18 Feb 13 at 3:15pm
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Steve Cockerill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve Cockerill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 13 at 3:18pm
Sadly, I think that the mere fact that we are talking about this has already earned the company the marketing that they were seeking. 

Happy Sailing
Steve Cockerill
Free Postage at:
www.roostersailing.com
Tel +44(0)1243 389997
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2547 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 13 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by JimC

Dunno, I think the more interesting question is "when could the sailors have known the sails weren't legal?" 

I think they would have known that had they asked a measurer to put his or hers signature on the corner of the sail as the rules require ... as everyone else does.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 13 at 3:30pm
Hi
Sorry i have sailed for months without my sails being measured because i did not go to an open where a measurer was present and i was not going to the nationals. Whilst some people seem to think this is awful i am sure the vast majority of club sailors would be in this situation.
I wonder if you checked how many people had new sails at the event had them measured before hand?
I dont wish to get into the legalities of the tape drive as FB int seem to have confused themselves.
Gordon
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