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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55
    Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:40am
Well STOP PRESS: Sailboats.co.uk simply don't give a f*ck what you think:

http://www.facebook.com/Sailboats.co.uk

Page Status update from yesterday:

"Looking forward to getting back on the water after the first victory of the campaign at the Tiger Trophey, Brearey Sailing and Christian Birrell will be in action in Fireball 555 down at Hayling Island SC (HISC) for the pursuit race and some sail testing! Good Luck lads"
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:38am
To resume:

-if the sails do not conform to class rules

and

-if neither the competitor, the class nor the sailmaker made any effort to inform the race committee;

then the sailing instruction requiring boats to conform to their class rules has been broken.

If this rule has been broken deliberately then this should be considered as gross misconduct.

If it is established to the comfortable satisfaction of the protest committee that the competitor has committed gross misconduct then they can issue a warning or impose a penalty.

That is a lot of ifs (no buts!)

Personally I believe that the RYA should be asked to deal with this issue, and then publish agreed guidelines on theorganisation of major handicap and pursuit events. Maybe, when there are more than, say, 100 boats then there should be a National Measurer present to follow up any allegations.
Gordon
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:27am
I don't think the debate is about PY itself, but about sportmanship. Do you knowingly break the SIs when entering a race when you might hope to win it?
Also to add to your point, my understanding is that the SJ has biased PY reference points towards the winners, rather than the majority, thereby reinforcing the seriousness of the events. We had a big debate on this a while back.
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:00am
Originally posted by sargesail

 

But in a sense it makes me see James point about PY: the 800 races with new gear without a penalty because there is PY lag (if there is a statistically significant performance advantage to drive change over time).  A development class can, if class rules allow make much bigger changes and race off the same PY.  The lag may well be longer because these classes tend not to add much data.

it's worth qualifying that point of view though.... in a race designed to be just a bit of fun to bring some disparate classes together on the same start line (or finish line in a pursuit!) for a celebration of sailing;much like the ethos of the John Merricks Charity Pursuit Race (aka the Tiger Trophy), does it really matter that there is a level of inaccuracy in it?  If it is glaringly obvious, then of course the local RO can adjust, which is exactly what the Great Lakes scheme does in fact; bringing the system back to within levels of acceptable deviation for the majority of participants.

The problems occur when people take the handicap racing too seriously.  The system is not geared to cope with the level of scrutiny applied by such people- the statistics and real-world qualitative feedback is testament to that.  Two winners under the internet witch-hunt in as many years, constant criticism of 'bandits', folks calling for boats to be declared 'out of class' when their own manufacturer AND class association have granted temporary approval to a pending minor change.  

I've been critical of PY myself, but on reflection that's because I was taking it way to seriously at the time- probably because I was sailing a new class with limited class racing and I looked to the handicap events and handicap racing in my club to provide a similar 'level playing field' to class racing.  I was missing the point of the PY system... it could never do that, it doesn't pretend to do that; but it does bring its own merits in other ways and 100 boats out in the middle of silly sh*tty cold season.... well, that's good as long as people approach it with the right attitude.   It's also quite ironic that at the time of the Merlin kerfuffle I was also supporting the 'retire'/hard line' rules approach... unwittingly sailing myself, out of class, with tapered sheets!

The purpose of PY is bring people together, but this hardline approach is driving us apart..... 


Edited by pondmonkey - 14 Feb 13 at 9:11am
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:53am
Originally posted by alstorer

Originally posted by sargesail

A development class can, if class rules allow make much bigger changes and race off the same PY.  The lag may well be longer because these classes tend not to add much data.
With development or even just less restrictive classes you can can get quite big changes without even changing any rules
 
But the development classes are known and that's why PY adjustments can be made by big PY events. For example the Moth had been knobbled more than the RYA PY, they then won at the BM and everyone was happy for them.
 
How can you set a PY for a supposedly restricted class if you have no idea what out of class changes might be going on.
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:46am
Originally posted by sargesail

A development class can, if class rules allow make much bigger changes and race off the same PY.  The lag may well be longer because these classes tend not to add much data.
With development or even just less restrictive classes you can can get quite big changes without even changing any rules
-_
Al
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:41am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

As for not caring because they only finished 7th....again rubbish to me, it doesn't matter if they finished 100th, they still ain't officially class legal where ever they finished.
I'd say we wouldn't be having such a long discussion if the Fireball hadn't won and consequently had its picture prominently on this and and other sites, but the again, we had a massive discussion about 420 rudder blades on boats that didn't come close to winning and didn't even have out of class rudder blades at all...
-_
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:24am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

but the 800 sails ARE class legal as they have been given dispensation by their class committee for their period of pre-adoption... this is very, very different from the Merlin and the Fireballl, where the association were in the dark and the tape drives were being trialled for a commercial third party.

Didn't some folks use the 'pimp' RS300 sail during its 'adoption assessment' in winter handicap events too?  Does that make some of the commentators here, all good blokes btw, cheats?  I don't think so.... not by a long way.

Yes - there's a great deal of difference between trialling a 300 sail specifically designed not to bring a performance advantage, but forced by obsolescent sail cloth, and where, following testing, there will be no alternative sail, from "testing" (concept of testing in a PY event is pretty much invalid - two boat is how you "test") a sail designed to be faster (exploiting weight advantages of tape drive).

In the 300's case the SMOD manufacturer has effectively said - here is your new sail, make sure it works and then give it technical approval.

I am less convinced about the 800s where there is, I understand, quite a change of shape.

But in a sense it makes me see James point about PY: the 800 races with new gear without a penalty because there is PY lag (if there is a statistically significant performance advantage to drive change over time).  A development class can, if class rules allow make much bigger changes and race off the same PY.  The lag may well be longer because these classes tend not to add much data.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:13am
Why, do the RO have the right of veto over the RS class rules, with temporary amendments approved by the class committee?

Edited by pondmonkey - 14 Feb 13 at 9:07am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:10am
It all depends on whether RS sought permission from the Race Organisers. If they did not then yes, the sailors should have retired at the end of the race.

The Fireball thing is particularly egregious because there was a specific SI in place reminding competitors that class rule compliance was required.
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