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Advertising via sail numbers? 55
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by SoggyBadger


Originally posted by Drylander

There has always been something a bit underhanded about this outfit ever since they got it from the Estaugh family, why do you think they lost there top sailmakers (did not want to be part of it is my guess).
Just out of curiosity, is your opinion of then any higher or lower than your opinion of RS, who fielded out of class sails on some of their RS800s at the BM?

A very valid point - in PR terms RS walk on water.
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Posts: 15 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam649 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 11:39pm
I would argue that the case of the RS is slightly different? The 800 sails have been cleared for trials by the class association, with a clear view to legalising them in the not too distant future. Also, people tend not to get so upset over a boat that finished seventh....

Edited by Sam649 - 13 Feb 13 at 11:42pm
RS 400 1202
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 7:25am
Sam, I disagree. I don't care that the class have given dispensation to them to trial the sails, they should do it at their own events, not one where all entrants expect everyone else to be taking part on a level playing field within standard class rules. As for not caring because they only finished 7th....again rubbish to me, it doesn't matter if they finished 100th, they still ain't officially class legal where ever they finished.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 7:36am
but the 800 sails ARE class legal as they have been given dispensation by their class committee for their period of pre-adoption... this is very, very different from the Merlin and the Fireballl, where the association were in the dark and the tape drives were being trialled for a commercial third party.

Didn't some folks use the 'pimp' RS300 sail during its 'adoption assessment' in winter handicap events too?  Does that make some of the commentators here, all good blokes btw, cheats?  I don't think so.... not by a long way.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:10am
It all depends on whether RS sought permission from the Race Organisers. If they did not then yes, the sailors should have retired at the end of the race.

The Fireball thing is particularly egregious because there was a specific SI in place reminding competitors that class rule compliance was required.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:13am
Why, do the RO have the right of veto over the RS class rules, with temporary amendments approved by the class committee?

Edited by pondmonkey - 14 Feb 13 at 9:07am
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:24am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

but the 800 sails ARE class legal as they have been given dispensation by their class committee for their period of pre-adoption... this is very, very different from the Merlin and the Fireballl, where the association were in the dark and the tape drives were being trialled for a commercial third party.

Didn't some folks use the 'pimp' RS300 sail during its 'adoption assessment' in winter handicap events too?  Does that make some of the commentators here, all good blokes btw, cheats?  I don't think so.... not by a long way.

Yes - there's a great deal of difference between trialling a 300 sail specifically designed not to bring a performance advantage, but forced by obsolescent sail cloth, and where, following testing, there will be no alternative sail, from "testing" (concept of testing in a PY event is pretty much invalid - two boat is how you "test") a sail designed to be faster (exploiting weight advantages of tape drive).

In the 300's case the SMOD manufacturer has effectively said - here is your new sail, make sure it works and then give it technical approval.

I am less convinced about the 800s where there is, I understand, quite a change of shape.

But in a sense it makes me see James point about PY: the 800 races with new gear without a penalty because there is PY lag (if there is a statistically significant performance advantage to drive change over time).  A development class can, if class rules allow make much bigger changes and race off the same PY.  The lag may well be longer because these classes tend not to add much data.
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:41am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

As for not caring because they only finished 7th....again rubbish to me, it doesn't matter if they finished 100th, they still ain't officially class legal where ever they finished.
I'd say we wouldn't be having such a long discussion if the Fireball hadn't won and consequently had its picture prominently on this and and other sites, but the again, we had a massive discussion about 420 rudder blades on boats that didn't come close to winning and didn't even have out of class rudder blades at all...
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:46am
Originally posted by sargesail

A development class can, if class rules allow make much bigger changes and race off the same PY.  The lag may well be longer because these classes tend not to add much data.
With development or even just less restrictive classes you can can get quite big changes without even changing any rules
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 8:53am
Originally posted by alstorer

Originally posted by sargesail

A development class can, if class rules allow make much bigger changes and race off the same PY.  The lag may well be longer because these classes tend not to add much data.
With development or even just less restrictive classes you can can get quite big changes without even changing any rules
 
But the development classes are known and that's why PY adjustments can be made by big PY events. For example the Moth had been knobbled more than the RYA PY, they then won at the BM and everyone was happy for them.
 
How can you set a PY for a supposedly restricted class if you have no idea what out of class changes might be going on.
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