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Advertising via sail numbers? 55
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55
    Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:31am
James,
Bad writing on my behalf. What I meant was where there a clearly written class rule it should adhered to 100%,not, maybe, maybe not adhere to it. Always difficult for anyone with the example you've given.

However what that grey area is for the class to resolve. If it has then the sail would be signed as measured, if not then it wouldn't be. If it wasn't then it shouldn't be used at an event that requires you to adhere to class rules. The grey areas within class rules should be resolved before the sail is measured. That way it remains the classes responsibility.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:31am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

But a question, the individual events that went before the SJ series banner, they were never treated as 'as important' as a bonafide class regatta in the past were they?


I think so, yes. In my class newsletter editor days winning a major event like the Bloody Mary or the Pompey Perisher got a much much bigger headline than winning a Class Open.

Indeed those events used to get a two page special feature in Y&Y even 20 years ago, which no class event ever got, not even championships. Go into the clubhouse at Queen Mary and you'll see a big board with a list of Bloody Mary winners, but I've not seen many for Open Meeting winners.
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Jamesd View Drop Down
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Posts: 377 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamesd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:29am
on a slightly separate note. With the RS rules, i just had a very quick glance before i dash out so may miss something fundamental here, but what is stopping you racing a 700 with a 600 main? or any other class within RS. 
Does it state that it must be a 700 sail? as far as i can see it must be supplied by an RS dealer like a 600 sail is and have a class insignia which you can buy.
The only thing i initially saw was that there is something about measurements being within a 10% of a five boat sample. 
I must be wrong here, the more i think about it, the more i think i missed it 
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:25am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

That's because the py events attract 100+ competitors

yes, and I bet for the majority the reason for entry is to met up with friends new and old, sail against something a bit different and to group-up away from the exposure of the coast at some of the larger lakes where safer racing can occur in a controlled, but fun environment.  

If they are going there with the sole intention to chalk up their 'ranking' in the 'Handicap Sailor of the Year' contest, then perhaps they are entering with the wrong intentions?  Certainly the assessment criteria is knowingly flawed for such a serious sporting accolade (the PY system) but it is more than sufficient for achieving the goals of a 'fun regatta' with a general indicator of performance and results.  

Also how many enter with the intention of completely the series, verses those who end up in by default from entering one or two of the events???  I've no idea, but when questioning it the mindset of the competitors this sort of info would help add fact to conjecture.
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Jamesd View Drop Down
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Posts: 377 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamesd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:16am
personally I would leave it. 

I disagree about the rules having no grey areas. I believe in many classes they are designed and built within a 'grey area'. Take that moth which a couple of years ago had a wing mast (i may be totally wrong here) but didnt that have a big sail area because they classed the front half of the "sail" as a mast thus allowing the area of the sail to be greater........the rules were not written for that, ok it may be class legal but did the measurement man take one look and say "yep thats good to go".....i doubt it, probably spent a long time going over the rules over and over trying to outclass it. I think it is a grey area when you find a way of bending a fundamental rule. blown diffusers etc on F1 cars............can't really remember the point i'm trying to make here

as for the fireball.....there was a merlin last year flicked for the same thing was there not?
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:14am
That's because the py events attract 100+ competitors and most opens are about 10 and the organisers cannot afford to be picky about the class rules otherwise half the entrants wouldn't be allowed to sail. Better illegal and sailing. Also it seems to be the guys at the back at the fleet who aren't going to trouble the prizes so let's not penalise them.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:10am
1.Sail number placement can be a major issue, in the Oppies for instance, where sail numbers close to the leech act as a reinforcement.

2. If a report of gross misconduct was received, a hearing could be opened under rule 69. If it was found that a rule had been broken deliberately but no advantage gained then the panel could issue a warning. Instructions could be given that this warning was to be posted on club notice board and published -for instance on the Y&Y website.

The warning could be phrased this way " Mr X, sponsored by XX sails, has been found to have to have committed gross misconduct as defined in rule69 of the Racing Rules of Sailing...."

In this way the sailmaker is associarted with the breaking of the rule.

Rule 69 is one rule in which disqualification is not automatic.

3. As for the sailmaker - my conclusion is "don't buy their sails - they can't be trusted to produce class legal sails. Not the publicity they were looking for - unless....
Gordon
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:04am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

Jimbo,
For the record my comments have been intended to be entirely about the principle of rule adherence. I hope that I have not been partaking of a witch hunt. I have only mentioned the fireball in context of statements made about the legality of the sail from the class. This to me is more of an example rather than direct blame and seeking them out. I am more concerned with everyone's adherence to the rules, not just theirs. I have only been trying to get the point across that rules should be respected at all levels of racing and that they are not subjective, to be discussed on shore as to what level of infringement should be reached before something is done.

In reality though class rule adherence is directly proportional to the importance of the event. Small club racing? No one cares. Open meetings? Might let an un measured sail be used, might not. Champs or major py series event?

no worries Maxi, your posts have been eloquently constructed and nuance of 'general comment' rather than individual finger waggling has certainly come through as I read them.  

Your second paragraph is very telling, and very true about the severity and common sense level of adherence that should apply... imho there are no grey areas for national champs or ISAF recognised events etc...  but 'major PY series event', seems to trump a good ol' open meeting in the importance stakes on your list.  I guess I'm really out of touch on this, I didn't think there was such a thing as a 'major PY series'... it seems rather paradoxical to me, after all PY is universally accepted as fallible and only really exists for light-hearted stuff doesn't it?  If we looking for a Champion of Champions then it's the Endeavour isn't it?  (Although I graciously accept JimC's point that the chosen craft favours some Champions over others)

You seem to sum up the general feeling on here, where I'm clearly in the minority in disputing the relevance of the minutiae of class rule details to a 'fun event'.  But a question, the individual events that went before the SJ series banner, they were never treated as 'as important' as a bonafide class regatta in the past were they?  I do wonder if with the best of intentions, the SJ banner has indadvertedly morphed these fun winter events into something that is now rather more uglier and serious than intended.

Frankly if you were a good sailor in contention, you better be damn sure your boat is squeaky-clean, your sponsors are suitably pimped and represented by fanboys on the internet and the class association is geared and ready for the Spanish Inquisition afterwards.  

F*ck that for a game of sailing....
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tgruitt View Drop Down
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Posts: 2479 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 9:40am
Originally posted by pondmonkey


Tapedrivegate.... seriously, it's time for a reality check folks.



Sums it up well.....
Needs to sail more...
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 9:38am
Jimbo,
For the record my comments have been intended to be entirely about the principle of rule adherence. I hope that I have not been partaking of a witch hunt. I have only mentioned the fireball in context of statements made about the legality of the sail from the class. This to me is more of an example rather than direct blame and seeking them out. I am more concerned with everyone's adherence to the rules, not just theirs. I have only been trying to get the point across that rules should be respected at all levels of racing and that they are not subjective, to be discussed on shore as to what level of infringement should be reached before something is done.

In reality though class rule adherence is directly proportional to the importance of the event. Small club racing? No one cares. Open meetings? Might let an un measured sail be used, might not. Champs or major py series event?

Edited by maxibuddah - 13 Feb 13 at 9:43am
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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