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Advertising via sail numbers? 55
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mongrel View Drop Down
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Posts: 304 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55
    Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 8:44am
Originally posted by hollandsd

Russ seriously?......There was no protest at the time and if no body had mentioned illegal sails here and there you and everyone else who competed wouldn't have been any the wiser.
Dan
Why should there have to be a protest?
This is meant to be a self policing sport!
If the fireball in question did get dispensation from the race organiser, why don't they come on here and state the case?
I think this needs nipping in the bud now, I think non SMOD boats should be prepared to take there measurement certificates to events for possible scrutiny, & any equipment not stamped or signed as being measured should not be used (unless its declared to the race officer at registration and a PY penalty applied).
My understanding is that if you had, for example, a Fireball, and you had an unmeasured sail, that sail would not be a Fireball sail until it has passed the measurement process. Likewise if the boat is not registered as belonging to a member of the class assocaition.
This sport will go down the toilet if its perceived that rules are allowed to be broken and the results allowed to stand.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 9:07am
Tell you one thing, we have a new advertising slogan:

Speed Sails Tape drive, the choice of Ch**ts.

I suppose someone had better put a report in to Rutland of a gross breach of good sportsmanship bringing the sport in disrepute. AIUI that doesn't need to come from a competitor and there's no time limit.

It would be a terrible shame if it had to be done though.

Edited by JimC - 13 Feb 13 at 9:12am
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 9:12am
Originally posted by JimC



Speed Sails Tape drive, the choice of Ch**ts.


why did you put the 'h' in their Jim, were the asterisks not enough of a mask? LOL 
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 9:21am
Originally posted by hollandsd

Russ seriously?......There was no protest at the time and if no body had mentioned illegal sails here and there you and everyone else who competed wouldn't have been any the wiser.
I'm surprised that everyone is making a fuss over something so small.

my sentiments exactly... what purpose has this witchhunt had?  Even the Demo Donkey has spat dummy from mouth and stated that unless there is a statement from either Rutland or the organisers, he won't be attending any of the events next year.  A crying shame.... a winter handicap event without one of the Hopkins lads to have a coffee n' natter with would be like going to the Rugby without Guinness in the bar.

I suspect next year there will still be technically out of class boats racing.  If the infraction were not so visual and not on the winning boat, no one would know, no one would care.  It's a charity handicap race FFS. 

The fellow Fireballs who presumably did know (and let's be frank, probably stood around chatting about them pre-launching like any of us would if a class mate showed up with something shiny and different) also didn't care enough to protest....

Tapedrivegate.... seriously, it's time for a reality check folks. 


Edited by pondmonkey - 13 Feb 13 at 9:23am
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 9:38am
Jimbo,
For the record my comments have been intended to be entirely about the principle of rule adherence. I hope that I have not been partaking of a witch hunt. I have only mentioned the fireball in context of statements made about the legality of the sail from the class. This to me is more of an example rather than direct blame and seeking them out. I am more concerned with everyone's adherence to the rules, not just theirs. I have only been trying to get the point across that rules should be respected at all levels of racing and that they are not subjective, to be discussed on shore as to what level of infringement should be reached before something is done.

In reality though class rule adherence is directly proportional to the importance of the event. Small club racing? No one cares. Open meetings? Might let an un measured sail be used, might not. Champs or major py series event?

Edited by maxibuddah - 13 Feb 13 at 9:43am
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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tgruitt View Drop Down
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Posts: 2479 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 9:40am
Originally posted by pondmonkey


Tapedrivegate.... seriously, it's time for a reality check folks.



Sums it up well.....
Needs to sail more...
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:04am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

Jimbo,
For the record my comments have been intended to be entirely about the principle of rule adherence. I hope that I have not been partaking of a witch hunt. I have only mentioned the fireball in context of statements made about the legality of the sail from the class. This to me is more of an example rather than direct blame and seeking them out. I am more concerned with everyone's adherence to the rules, not just theirs. I have only been trying to get the point across that rules should be respected at all levels of racing and that they are not subjective, to be discussed on shore as to what level of infringement should be reached before something is done.

In reality though class rule adherence is directly proportional to the importance of the event. Small club racing? No one cares. Open meetings? Might let an un measured sail be used, might not. Champs or major py series event?

no worries Maxi, your posts have been eloquently constructed and nuance of 'general comment' rather than individual finger waggling has certainly come through as I read them.  

Your second paragraph is very telling, and very true about the severity and common sense level of adherence that should apply... imho there are no grey areas for national champs or ISAF recognised events etc...  but 'major PY series event', seems to trump a good ol' open meeting in the importance stakes on your list.  I guess I'm really out of touch on this, I didn't think there was such a thing as a 'major PY series'... it seems rather paradoxical to me, after all PY is universally accepted as fallible and only really exists for light-hearted stuff doesn't it?  If we looking for a Champion of Champions then it's the Endeavour isn't it?  (Although I graciously accept JimC's point that the chosen craft favours some Champions over others)

You seem to sum up the general feeling on here, where I'm clearly in the minority in disputing the relevance of the minutiae of class rule details to a 'fun event'.  But a question, the individual events that went before the SJ series banner, they were never treated as 'as important' as a bonafide class regatta in the past were they?  I do wonder if with the best of intentions, the SJ banner has indadvertedly morphed these fun winter events into something that is now rather more uglier and serious than intended.

Frankly if you were a good sailor in contention, you better be damn sure your boat is squeaky-clean, your sponsors are suitably pimped and represented by fanboys on the internet and the class association is geared and ready for the Spanish Inquisition afterwards.  

F*ck that for a game of sailing....
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:10am
1.Sail number placement can be a major issue, in the Oppies for instance, where sail numbers close to the leech act as a reinforcement.

2. If a report of gross misconduct was received, a hearing could be opened under rule 69. If it was found that a rule had been broken deliberately but no advantage gained then the panel could issue a warning. Instructions could be given that this warning was to be posted on club notice board and published -for instance on the Y&Y website.

The warning could be phrased this way " Mr X, sponsored by XX sails, has been found to have to have committed gross misconduct as defined in rule69 of the Racing Rules of Sailing...."

In this way the sailmaker is associarted with the breaking of the rule.

Rule 69 is one rule in which disqualification is not automatic.

3. As for the sailmaker - my conclusion is "don't buy their sails - they can't be trusted to produce class legal sails. Not the publicity they were looking for - unless....
Gordon
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:14am
That's because the py events attract 100+ competitors and most opens are about 10 and the organisers cannot afford to be picky about the class rules otherwise half the entrants wouldn't be allowed to sail. Better illegal and sailing. Also it seems to be the guys at the back at the fleet who aren't going to trouble the prizes so let's not penalise them.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Jamesd View Drop Down
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Posts: 377 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamesd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 10:16am
personally I would leave it. 

I disagree about the rules having no grey areas. I believe in many classes they are designed and built within a 'grey area'. Take that moth which a couple of years ago had a wing mast (i may be totally wrong here) but didnt that have a big sail area because they classed the front half of the "sail" as a mast thus allowing the area of the sail to be greater........the rules were not written for that, ok it may be class legal but did the measurement man take one look and say "yep thats good to go".....i doubt it, probably spent a long time going over the rules over and over trying to outclass it. I think it is a grey area when you find a way of bending a fundamental rule. blown diffusers etc on F1 cars............can't really remember the point i'm trying to make here

as for the fireball.....there was a merlin last year flicked for the same thing was there not?
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