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Advertising via sail numbers? 55
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    Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 9:51pm
It may well be a dumb rule hat needs changing, but if it offers no advantage to use tape drive sails, why bother making them rather than legal ones?
Edit. They do look pretty though!

Edited by Peaky - 12 Feb 13 at 9:52pm
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 9:52pm
Rules may well be dumb (sail numbers being possibly one of the worst) and I'm sure most classes will have them. That's when it's up to the members to change the dumb rules. I'm sure that some classes will be more difficult to change than others though.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posts: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paul S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by Peaky

It may well be a dumb rule hat needs changing, but if it offers no advantage to use tape drive sails, why bother making them rather than legal ones?


I agree. Why make a sail that you never intend to get measured??
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

No no rules are rules I'm totally with you on that, and in principle, any knowing transgression is pretty bad form.
I'm pretty sure that all of our boats, if scrutinised aggressively enough, may not be totally compliant to the letter of the law.
However I think in this case the illegality of tape drive is a total anomaly and offers no performance gain over similar technologies. My point on subjectivity was that the illegality of tape drive is based on a subjective interpretation of a rule. It's still illegal, it's just a bit dumb that its illegal. I'm not advocating people's subjective interpretation of rrs or class rules!
I think that the whole context of this situation shows how highly most people regard te rules, even on nominally trivial matters like the spacing of sail numbers.
I stand by my assertion that those guys are worthy winners, if a little naive in thinking their sail choice wouldn't draw heat, especially given what had gone before.
Agreed though, if not kept on a fairly tight lead, things could descend into anarchy somewhat.
Seriously think a little clause in merlin and firball rules is in order.

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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8BdT5mFAk-Y&feature=fvwrel

Don't really care about the rules anymore.  I do care about the lack of respect to the Race team and fellow competitors.
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Posts: 64 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Caveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 1:47am
Wow what a marathon topic. I felt I had to add to it.
 
If 3dl sails are already legal in the Fireball class, I can hardly get excited about the fact that a competitor turned up with a tape drive sail. But by the same token, if that crew were to be disqualified, I wouldn't feel very sorry for them.  If I were to turn up to a major open event open with my Solo sporting a brand new, unmeasured sail complete with the wrong number and no ISAF sticker, I would not expect to be allowed to compete - even without my T foil rudder.
 
As to whether tape drive sails give a performance advantage over a traditional sail, Speed themselves said the following: "We can build a sail that will be lighter than a traditional sail, will distort less and have a longer racing life".
 
A lighter sail surely does offer a minor but real performance advantage over a traditional sail. I guess that the the weight saving is not great, but it surely has a bit less inertia and so would make the boat a bit easier and very slightly faster to sail. I have always assumed that is why some people spend rather a lot of money on those carbonfibre sail battens. 
Enthusiasm>Skill
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 7:28am
Caveman,
it's irrelevant whether the sail gives an advantage or not, it is illegal to class rules so shouldn't be used. By questioning the performance advantage of something to see whether it should be allowed is back into the realms of being subjective about the rules. Who decides then when it is ok or it is illegal? This seems to be the bulk of this topic in that people were saying that is doesn't offer any advantage so it's ok. Once it was determined that the sail did not conform to the class rules that should have been the end of the discussion, it was illegal, end of story, in the same way that your un-measured solo would be too.

Sarge,
I agree that rule breaking shows a lack of respect for your fellow competitors, but for some people minor rules bending appears to be ok whereas full on warping of the rules is not. I was trying to clarify that there is no distinction, they are all breaking the rules. There is no grey area within the rules, they are either abided by or not.

As I have said before the biggest problem now is how to police them to ensure that this sort of thing doesn't happen again. As for jimbos point about py racing not being serious enough t worry, I'm sorry but you are wrong, for most people there it is serious, whether its for the overall prize or just racing within their own class within the overall. Rules should be abided by whether you are racing in fleets or in py.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 7:50am
Well if these fireball sails are illegal, its a crying shame.  This coupled with the illegal 800 sails at the Bloody Mary has done it for me.  I wont be going back unless there is some kind of statement from Rutland as to the results.  Truth be told this fireball would of almost certainly one with legal sails, but the lack of respect the sailor has shown to his fellow competitors, his sport and lets be frank the late John Merricks and his sailing trust, is enough for me not to want to compete in the winter handicap again.  Unless something changes the Stevie Nich, will be the last i do.  I am sure the great Lakes group or sail-juice will not shed a tear as to someone as openly critical and as poorly talented as me saying they wont be attending again.  So from now on let the sail loft and large brand Jockeys cheat all they want.

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Posts: 853 		Post Options Post Options   Quote hollandsd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 8:05am
Russ seriously?......There was no protest at the time and if no body had mentioned illegal sails here and there you and everyone else who competed wouldn't have been any the wiser.
I'm surprised that everyone is making a fuss over something so small.

In fleet racing a small change can make a big diference especually when the fleet is close. With handicap racing the tolerance is far wider so when a change is made its likely to affect the handicap less. With sail material changes you are into such smallgains percentage wise.

If I notice an illegal boat I will protest at the time....if I'm told later and its something serious like a seriously underweight hull then I'll protest. If its something like this I'm not going to lose any sleep.

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Posts: 220 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sandgrounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 8:15am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

Rules may well be dumb (sail numbers being possibly one of the worst) and I'm sure most classes will have them. That's when it's up to the members to change the dumb rules. I'm sure that some classes will be more difficult to change than others though.
 
If, for example, a Laser sailor were to reduce his sail number from the standard 6 digits to, say, 55, then he could potentially be more than 1 metre OCS (1/4 of his boatlength) without being spotted, hence not totally a dumb rule.
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 8:31am
Originally posted by sandgrounder

Originally posted by maxibuddah

Rules may well be dumb (sail numbers being possibly one of the worst) and I'm sure most classes will have them. That's when it's up to the members to change the dumb rules. I'm sure that some classes will be more difficult to change than others though.








 

If, for example, a Laser sailor were to reduce his sail number from the standard 6 digits to, say, 55, then he could potentially be more than 1 metre OCS (1/4 of his boatlength) without being spotted, hence not totally a dumb rule.


I was referring to the original post about lasers where the sail number wasn't quite parallel or a few mm too high, apologies as I didn't make that clear.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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