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Advertising via sail numbers? 55

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55
    Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Peaky



It is surely up to the classes to change their rules, not sailmakers to ignore them.

Someone has spent many hundreds of pounds developing an illegal sail, so not so trivial really.

I'm sure they are very nice sails, and very good sailors, but let them use them in the Fireball Nationals if the other Fireball sailors really don't care.


I think that is the point. You would not turn up with those sails at the nationals, so to do so elsewhere show contempt for that event. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by AlexM

Don't worry James, all your results have been deleted ;)
This means someone has now beaten you at an event.... :)

One thing I can be assured of, he is more of a man than most; and wouldn't bleat over a technicality like that.   

If of course he had actual evidence that I tampered with his halyard blocks.... well that'd be a different story  LOL


Edited by pondmonkey - 12 Feb 13 at 1:47pm
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Pierre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pierre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by Peaky



It is surely up to the classes to change their rules, not sailmakers to ignore them.

Someone has spent many hundreds of pounds developing an illegal sail, so not so trivial really.

I'm sure they are very nice sails, and very good sailors, but let them use them in the Fireball Nationals if the other Fireball sailors really don't care.


I think that is the point. You would not turn up with those sails at the nationals, so to do so elsewhere show contempt for that event. 

They might turn up at the Nationals with them, and I don't think it shows contempt at all.
If they had a small motor concealed about the boat then I would agree contempt, but the bloody sails were just there as a marketing exercise FFS.

So, anyway, I must see if that Osprey bloke was cheating as well. Tongue

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 2:06pm
There are a number of well made points to this debate that I could actually agree to separately. The challenge is how we bring them together to a conclusion that increases the health our sport.
 
 
To my mind it won't be a good conclusion if we basically fudge the issue just because we don't want an internet storm in a team cup (no lives or livelyhood's are at risk here).
 
In Dan's response (not picking on you, just using your example) he alludes to two situations that are at the opposite extremes, so naturally it is easy to exercise some judgement as to how heinous the transgressions are. It's the bit in between that causes the problem and more often than not any rule you may choose to create to distinguish the boundary point will have unintended consequences. Usually it means you either let a few cheats through, or you penalise some honest mistakes. Of course what we doing here is simply creating another rule to assess how heinous transgressions are, which brings us back to square one. So more rules ain't the answer.
 

We'll leave the Fireball class to change their own rules I think.

 

We then have the issue of the spirit of the events: fun, interesting, sail against different boats....

What surprises me is those spirits are used to put aside the spirit of fair play. I can't think of any other rule that is more fundamental to sport, which is presumably why the RRS 2 has it upfront in it's own section. Now this is subjective, but again if we use Dan's example I think most would agree that if there was intent to use something illegal/out-of-class that would not be considered fair play. We still have not got all the facts yet, but let's assume for sake of argument that the RO was not notified, would anyone really consider sailing with illegal sails fair play....not heard anyone actually say that, so I think we all agree on fair play.

What makes me err on the side of not leaving this to lie, is not one of piety, but I ask myself the question if fair play was knowingly broken by some of the best talent in a sport, what message are we sending to the youngsters and newcomers if we just shrug our shoulders. It instills an attitude that can easily spread and escalate to the point that you put the whole sport into disrepute as nicely demonstrated by cycling.

In the back of my mind is always “there by the grace of god go I”, so I think the best course of action is a straightforward apology and a statement that it won’t happen again. That way the only person/peoples put in an awkward position are the transgressors and I think that is a better deterrent than any rule breaking. The message to the rest of the sport is also unambiguously clear I think.

Usual caveat on whether we have the facts right, but just want to be able to share the thought process going through my mind.



Edited by rb_stretch - 12 Feb 13 at 2:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 2:15pm
When I bought my boat, the sail numbers were 100mm above the prescribed position, and not parallel to the batten pocket. This puts them out of the class measurement rules.
 
I can't be arsed to peel them off, put new ones in the right place and have to deal with the sticky left behind in the wrong place.
 
At a class event I will no doubt be protested by a class measurer, but at a handicap event no-one will give a toss.
 
If I use this sail at a handicap event (as it is the only one I have), does this make me a cheat, showing contempt for my fellow competitors, or just lazy?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by Pierre

Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by Peaky



It is surely up to the classes to change their rules, not sailmakers to ignore them.

Someone has spent many hundreds of pounds developing an illegal sail, so not so trivial really.

I'm sure they are very nice sails, and very good sailors, but let them use them in the Fireball Nationals if the other Fireball sailors really don't care.


I think that is the point. You would not turn up with those sails at the nationals, so to do so elsewhere show contempt for that event. 

They might turn up at the Nationals with them, 


Of course they wont, they have been ruled illegal their class.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by GarethT

When I bought my boat, the sail numbers were 100mm above the prescribed position, and not parallel to the batten pocket. This puts them out of the class measurement rules.
 
I can't be arsed to peel them off, put new ones in the right place and have to deal with the sticky left behind in the wrong place.
 
At a class event I will no doubt be protested by a class measurer, but at a handicap event no-one will give a toss.
 
If I use this sail at a handicap event (as it is the only one I have), does this make me a cheat, showing contempt for my fellow competitors, or just lazy?

sensible I'd say... 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by GarethT

When I bought my boat, the sail numbers were 100mm above the prescribed position, and not parallel to the batten pocket. This puts them out of the class measurement rules.
 
I can't be arsed to peel them off, put new ones in the right place and have to deal with the sticky left behind in the wrong place.
 
At a class event I will no doubt be protested by a class measurer, but at a handicap event no-one will give a toss.
 
If I use this sail at a handicap event (as it is the only one I have), does this make me a cheat, showing contempt for my fellow competitors, or just lazy?
 
I would do the same, but then I'm never going to be in with a chance of winning something major. If I was and I cared about it then I would correct.
 
As I said in my earlier post I find it easy to agree with all the points in isolation. It's bringing them together that creates the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey


sensible I'd say... 
 
Knowingly breaking a class rule though?
 
Maybe sportsmanship isn't as black and white as some think then.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch


I would do the same, but then I'm never going to be in with a chance of winning something major. If I was and I cared about it then I would correct.
 

but if you were in contention you'd probably have a new rag anyway... given to you by a sponsor.
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