Advertising via sail numbers? 55

There are a number of well made points to this debate that I could actually agree to separately. The challenge is how we bring them together to a conclusion that increases the health our sport.

 

 

To my mind it won't be a good conclusion if we basically fudge the issue just because we don't want an internet storm in a team cup (no lives or livelyhood's are at risk here).

 

We'll leave the Fireball class to change their own rules I think.

 

We then have the issue of the spirit of the events: fun, interesting, sail against different boats....

What surprises me is those spirits are used to put aside the spirit of fair play. I can't think of any other rule that is more fundamental to sport, which is presumably why the RRS 2 has it upfront in it's own section. Now this is subjective, but again if we use Dan's example I think most would agree that if there was intent to use something illegal/out-of-class that would not be considered fair play. We still have not got all the facts yet, but let's assume for sake of argument that the RO was not notified, would anyone really consider sailing with illegal sails fair play....not heard anyone actually say that, so I think we all agree on fair play.

What makes me err on the side of not leaving this to lie, is not one of piety, but I ask myself the question if fair play was knowingly broken by some of the best talent in a sport, what message are we sending to the youngsters and newcomers if we just shrug our shoulders. It instills an attitude that can easily spread and escalate to the point that you put the whole sport into disrepute as nicely demonstrated by cycling.

In the back of my mind is always “there by the grace of god go I”, so I think the best course of action is a straightforward apology and a statement that it won’t happen again. That way the only person/peoples put in an awkward position are the transgressors and I think that is a better deterrent than any rule breaking. The message to the rest of the sport is also unambiguously clear I think.

Usual caveat on whether we have the facts right, but just want to be able to share the thought process going through my mind.

Edited by rb_stretch - 12 Feb 13 at 2:07pm

Originally posted by AlexM Don't worry James, all your results have been deleted ;) This means someone has now beaten you at an event.... :)

Edited by pondmonkey - 12 Feb 13 at 1:47pm

Originally posted by Daniel Holman 1. Jimbo's honest, sometimes tearful confession that he had unknowingly competed with tapered spinnaker sheets in his RS100. The Oprah Winfrey slot is lined up. I trust all regattas have been retrospectively retired from. 2. The guy who knowingly removes 10kg of correctors / notches out the racks for a non scrutinised event Both technically cheating, but not on the same level, or deserving of the same punishment. I see the use of tape drive as being less heinous than #1,

I don't agree. In my opinion the deliberate use of equipment known to be in breach of class rules is much closer to number 2, and far worse than using the wrong sheets in ignorance.

Originally posted by Daniel Holman I can't believe there has been so much written about this, 35 pages! As long as the race officer can read the numbers at a Hcap event and there aren't two boats with the same numbers, really who cares? OD champs, maybe a bit different. And the fuss over the tape drive? My god. I appreciate that on one level; cheating is cheating, but, my tuppence worth: Class rules are written down as a codified way of conveying intent. The general intent of most class rules are quite rightly to preserve seaworthiness, robustness, control costs and ensure an appropriate degree of uniformity between boats in a class. N.B uniformity being different from class to class. The secondary reinforcement rule will have been written when JP Baudet (3Dl inventor/patent holder) was in short trousers. The intent of the secondary reinforcement rule, as someone has pointed out, is to insure against very light clths being used in the body of a panelled sail, a result which would be undersirable for the class for any of the above reasons - a result that would be likely without some such wording. Does anyone really think that tape drive sails, a totally generic technology, are intended to subvert the intent of the secondary reinforcement rule? Does anyone think that they are costlier / less robust / higher performing than the other membrane / non panelled competitors out there which have, lets be honest, totally overwhelmed tape drive in the performance sail market as a whole? Does anyone think that these guys wouldn't have won with panelled sails? Or other load path sails? Lets compare two different types of cheating: 1. Jimbo's honest, sometimes tearful confession that he had unknowingly competed with tapered spinnaker sheets in his RS100. The Oprah Winfrey slot is lined up. I trust all regattas have been retrospectively retired from. 2. The guy who knowingly removes 10kg of correctors / notches out the racks for a non scrutinised event Both technically cheating, but not on the same level, or deserving of the same punishment. I see the use of tape drive as being less heinous than #1, as the product itself is within the grey area of an interpretation, offers no real performance advantage over similar products, and if anything subverts the intent of the rule less than other (complaint) products. I say write a clause into the furball/Merlin rules explicitly allowing tape drive, thus avoiding needing to rewrite the rule fully. Its a total joke that in classes where 3Dl is rife, and where £15k boats are built 20kg underweight in carbon with big ingots of expensive lead in, that a slightly fringe but perfectly sound / affordable sailmaking technology that is in no way harming the class is being made such an example of due to the literal interpretation, ignorant of intent,of a rule written in the 1960s to prevent dodgy panelled sails from being used.  (apologies for lack of punctuation, Holman draws breath) Give these guys the win they earned and deserve, lets stop getting all pious, vitriolic and daily mail esque (or at least leave that for the real cheats) and lets get to talking about stuff that is interesting / relevant.

36 pages now, and this is by far the best post - cheers Dan!

Dan, I don't disagree that the tapedrive sails probably ought to be legal, in as much as banning them doesn't serve a purpose. But the Merlin and Fireball classes have both ruled them illegal for whatever silly reason, so to deliberately go against that ruling is, um, brave.

It is surely up to the classes to change their rules, not sailmakers to ignore them.

Someone has spent many hundreds of pounds developing an illegal sail, so not so trivial really.

I'm sure they are very nice sails, and very good sailors, but let them use them in the Fireball Nationals if the other Fireball sailors really don't care.

How hard can it be to change a class rule to reflect common sense? (No need to answer!!)