Advertising via sail numbers? 55

reinforcement

   One thing's for sure, any controversy can be immediately silenced by the boat in question getting their sails measured (if not already done) and demonstrating that they pass.

If they don't pass, however, the sporting thing to do would be to follow the example of their predecessor.

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JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55 Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 9:25am
	One thing's for sure, any controversy can be immediately silenced by the boat in question getting their sails measured (if not already done) and demonstrating that they pass. If they don't pass, however, the sporting thing to do would be to follow the example of their predecessor.

gordon Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037	Post Options Post Reply Quote gordon Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 9:05am
	1. A Jury would not base a decision on private correspondence btween a class official and a sailor, even if the correspondence was published. If the current official documents, including any officially posted interpretations did not provide a clear answer then the Jury would refer the problem to the authority responsible for interpreting the class rules (see rule 64.3 b) 2.As there is no protest the club or any RYA affiliated organisation can request an interpretation of the rules (rule 70.4). This would perhaps clarify the situation and establish a correct procedure for future events.
	Gordon

alstorer Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899	Post Options Post Reply Quote alstorer Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 8:47am
	I get the impression too that that the statement on the Fireball website, whilst not referencing the Tiger or discussions like this, has been made because of this fuss.
	-_ Al

2547 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151	Post Options Post Reply Quote 2547 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 8:33am
	The Fireball class has made an official statement on their website, I think that is clear. It is also backed by the RYAs position taken on the Merlin case 2 years back. It beggars belief that history repeats itself in this way.

rb_stretch Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 23 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 742	Post Options Post Reply Quote rb_stretch Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 7:44am
	I have to say the wording in the FB forum pointed out is not what you would call a definitive statement: "From what I know of the various load path sails mentioned in your post, they would all be considered "laminated ply" sails:" 'From what I know' reads like a disclaimer for 'I don't really know'. The statement I quoted from the Fireball Association earlier in the thread also says that much discussion has been happening over the years, so it is clear that the forum is not a reliable place to understand any debate and get class judgements (I think we would all agree on that by what goes on here).

r2d2 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 29 Sep 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 350	Post Options Post Reply Quote r2d2 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 7:36am
	Roy Races's posts are clear, except that he chooses the interpretation of the rules that he "believes" is correct, but seemingly has no reason for that choice other than its the rule he wants to apply. Now what rule would I like? Hmmmm

Neal_g Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Far too distracted from work Joined: 07 Oct 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 323	Post Options Post Reply Quote Neal_g Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 7:20am
	If we follow Roy race's suggestion that reinforcement has to be a sheet of sail cloth then it would never be a problem for re-inforcement as most cloth is 137cm wide for laminates so as long as you trimmed it, it would never be a sheet. point is we all know thats not true in practice the main rule states single ply laminate therefore as soon as you stick tapes on it ceases to be single ply as you have mulitple layers secondary re-inforcement is no mor ethan 2 layers of additional material be it tapes or sailcloth. other classes have rules that state the patches must be from the same cloth as the body of the sail which excludes tape drive from them classes as well.
	(Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com

getafix Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143	Post Options Post Reply Quote getafix Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 6:17am
	thank goodness we have the SJ Winter Series, whatever would become of us all without it .....?

sargesail Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459	Post Options Post Reply Quote sargesail Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 1:14am
	Well it's clear that if they are used again a Protest would be appropriate - and probably a Rule 2 Protest at that. And there I was deciding not to test out a fixed spi halliard return block rather than the one on a string that we have in the Class Rules. I'll have a look at it outside a racing environment. I'm a hardliner - changes seek an improvement (and lower cost is part of that). Whether the desired effect is delivered this has teh potential for an effect on the other competitors (if the baddy beats them!) Therefore if it's not Class legal it shouldn't be allowed. And in a handicap event where competitors are not savvy on other classes it is for the boat considering a change to be squeaky clean! The comment has been made - why no protest? Who knew/understood? And who can be bothered with the faff of a post event Rule 2 protest.

Roy Race Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Aug 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 275	Post Options Post Reply Quote Roy Race Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 12:59am
	I believe the Merlin Class did approach the RYA and were told that the tapes were secondary reinforcement. It's a little different this time though, as the Merlins are a National Class and are administered by the RYA. The Fireballs are an International Class and are ultimately administered by ISAF. I'd certainly say that the legality of the sails is not a clear-cut issue. The rules are ambiguous - not quite adequate for purpose and there are two main ways of interpreting them: A 1" ribbon of glass filament tape is "a sheet of sail material". The tapes are therefore reinforcement, are oversized and the sail is illegal. A 1" ribbon of glass filament tape isn't "a sheet of sail material" so can't be reinforcement. The tapes are layers of the laminated ply and the sail is legal. Personally, I believe the second view is correct. There are no rules which say how many layers laminated ply can have, or that the top layer must be a full width of film or at what stage in the sailmaking process the layers must be applied. I'll admit that neither view is wrong as such though. The rules are ambiguous and the outcome depends on your interpretation. The sails can currently comply with the rules very easily if you want them to and have previously been ruled in class by the Fireball International Technical Committee Chairman. As such, I'm not sure why a vote is needed now but however it comes about, at least the Fireball Class is open to discussion. Despite the method being 20 years old, it's still a relevant way of making loadpath sails. The sails are very easy to make, with no special equipment and are very cost-effective, which is a good thing in the current climate.