Advertising via sail numbers? 55

secondary/primary reinforcement

   The fireball rules are very similar to the graduate rules in terms of secondary reinforcement, and aerowebs were declared illegal in that class a while back. 

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craiggo Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810	Post Options Post Reply Quote craiggo Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55 Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 11:18pm
	The fireball rules are very similar to the graduate rules in terms of secondary reinforcement, and aerowebs were declared illegal in that class a while back.

Roy Race Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Aug 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 275	Post Options Post Reply Quote Roy Race Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 11:40pm
	Well, I have nothing against people or organisations changing their position but please note that at the time of the Tiger Trophy, the only previous comment on this subject (that I am aware of) published by the Fireball Class had been the one above, ruling in favour of the technology, made by the International Technical Committee. The comment today was made by the UK Technical Committee and was made 4 days after the Tiger Trophy finished. You can only sail using the information available at the time. Anyway, from a rules perspective I don't believe that the tapes are secondary reinforcement and I'll try to summarise why below: The rules in question are the Class Rules, which contains terms defined by the Equipment Rules of Sailing (ERS). The class rules limit the dimensions of secondary/primary reinforcement. Secondary/primary reinforcement is a defined term, and consists of additional layers of ply at the corners of the sail. Ply is a defined as a sheet of sail material, which may be made up of a number of layers. So for something to be reinforcement, it has to be a sheet of sail material. So if like me, you do not believe that 1" glass filament tape is "a sheet of sail material", then you cannot believe it is secondary (or primary) reinforcement. I believe it's correct to consider that the tapes simply act as layers of the laminated ply. Certainly, that's the intention of them. It's also the intention of the reinforcement rule to purely and simply limit the size of the patches. Incidentally, why patch size would need limiting I don't know, because plenty of dinghy classes (and almost all yacht classes) have no such limit and you don't get patch size "arms races" developing. That, though, is another matter.

Jeepers Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 26 May 11 Location: Hamphire Online Status: Offline Posts: 147	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeepers Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 11:43pm
	Yawn..off to bed

andymck Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397	Post Options Post Reply Quote andymck Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 12:14am
	I have heard the primary and secondary argument before. I know the class I sail in has allowed such technology in the 90's with that argument. I thought the Merlin Class had gone a bit further on clarification of what that was. There may have been a question to the RYA. The statement on the FB website goes appear clear. Andy
	Andy Mck

Roy Race Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Aug 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 275	Post Options Post Reply Quote Roy Race Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 12:59am
	I believe the Merlin Class did approach the RYA and were told that the tapes were secondary reinforcement. It's a little different this time though, as the Merlins are a National Class and are administered by the RYA. The Fireballs are an International Class and are ultimately administered by ISAF. I'd certainly say that the legality of the sails is not a clear-cut issue. The rules are ambiguous - not quite adequate for purpose and there are two main ways of interpreting them: A 1" ribbon of glass filament tape is "a sheet of sail material". The tapes are therefore reinforcement, are oversized and the sail is illegal. A 1" ribbon of glass filament tape isn't "a sheet of sail material" so can't be reinforcement. The tapes are layers of the laminated ply and the sail is legal. Personally, I believe the second view is correct. There are no rules which say how many layers laminated ply can have, or that the top layer must be a full width of film or at what stage in the sailmaking process the layers must be applied. I'll admit that neither view is wrong as such though. The rules are ambiguous and the outcome depends on your interpretation. The sails can currently comply with the rules very easily if you want them to and have previously been ruled in class by the Fireball International Technical Committee Chairman. As such, I'm not sure why a vote is needed now but however it comes about, at least the Fireball Class is open to discussion. Despite the method being 20 years old, it's still a relevant way of making loadpath sails. The sails are very easy to make, with no special equipment and are very cost-effective, which is a good thing in the current climate.

sargesail Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459	Post Options Post Reply Quote sargesail Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 1:14am
	Well it's clear that if they are used again a Protest would be appropriate - and probably a Rule 2 Protest at that. And there I was deciding not to test out a fixed spi halliard return block rather than the one on a string that we have in the Class Rules. I'll have a look at it outside a racing environment. I'm a hardliner - changes seek an improvement (and lower cost is part of that). Whether the desired effect is delivered this has teh potential for an effect on the other competitors (if the baddy beats them!) Therefore if it's not Class legal it shouldn't be allowed. And in a handicap event where competitors are not savvy on other classes it is for the boat considering a change to be squeaky clean! The comment has been made - why no protest? Who knew/understood? And who can be bothered with the faff of a post event Rule 2 protest.

getafix Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143	Post Options Post Reply Quote getafix Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 6:17am
	thank goodness we have the SJ Winter Series, whatever would become of us all without it .....?

Neal_g Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Far too distracted from work Joined: 07 Oct 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 323	Post Options Post Reply Quote Neal_g Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 7:20am
	If we follow Roy race's suggestion that reinforcement has to be a sheet of sail cloth then it would never be a problem for re-inforcement as most cloth is 137cm wide for laminates so as long as you trimmed it, it would never be a sheet. point is we all know thats not true in practice the main rule states single ply laminate therefore as soon as you stick tapes on it ceases to be single ply as you have mulitple layers secondary re-inforcement is no mor ethan 2 layers of additional material be it tapes or sailcloth. other classes have rules that state the patches must be from the same cloth as the body of the sail which excludes tape drive from them classes as well.
	(Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com

r2d2 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 29 Sep 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 350	Post Options Post Reply Quote r2d2 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 7:36am
	Roy Races's posts are clear, except that he chooses the interpretation of the rules that he "believes" is correct, but seemingly has no reason for that choice other than its the rule he wants to apply. Now what rule would I like? Hmmmm

rb_stretch Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 23 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 742	Post Options Post Reply Quote rb_stretch Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 7:44am
	I have to say the wording in the FB forum pointed out is not what you would call a definitive statement: "From what I know of the various load path sails mentioned in your post, they would all be considered "laminated ply" sails:" 'From what I know' reads like a disclaimer for 'I don't really know'. The statement I quoted from the Fireball Association earlier in the thread also says that much discussion has been happening over the years, so it is clear that the forum is not a reliable place to understand any debate and get class judgements (I think we would all agree on that by what goes on here).