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Advertising via sail numbers? 55
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

Who's going to boot it? No protest... vis a vis, no moral obligation to retire either IMHO.
 
To me this now hinges on whether the RO was notified of non-class legal sails and were therefore able to consider whether to adjust PY etc.
 
If the RO was not notified then I think there is a moral obligation to retire. If they did notify and the RO didn't do anything, then fair play to them, they won.
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Originally posted by pondmonkey

Can't we have a good drugs scandal- Lance Armstrong's kept cycling in the public eye so much better than this year's shade of Revlon being a little controversial.


Like the whole of Aussie sport, you mean?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Originally posted by SoggyBadger


Originally posted by fudheid

If it is immaterial then why bother?
It is not immaterial to the patent holder. ask north /doyle/ sobstad who spent alot of time and money deciding who could do what.....

That has to be the most horrendous mis-comprehension of a simple English sentence I've ever come across. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Originally posted by fudheid

tape drive is a trademarked membrane (just like everything in sails these days) owned by uksailmakers (butch halsey).
Any sailmaker can buy it if they have an account with a franchise like north/doyle/quantum/ullman/velman/China Sails/UKsails - i'm not sure if Hydes have a 'string' sail, but as an independant sailmaker you cannot buy these products unless you have done a deal with the larger loft.

You're very good at contradicting yourself. Also are you aware that the patents on in.all this technology has long since expired?
Originally posted by fudheid

The only membrane sails an independant sailmaker can buy is DIAX2LP or D4, one is Bainbridge and the other is Dimension polyant - both are cloth suppliers and not sailmakers. 
I'm well aware of both Bainbridge and DP and their products having dealt with them both when I was in the trade.


Fair play your syntax is better than mine, I feel ashamed your sentence construction is better than mine. You must teach English?
The patents are still very much in the way that is why they all differ.These large outfits are pretty aggressive at protecting they're tech and continue to be litigious. These companies spent millions buying and developing they're technology. They do not tend to offer it to small (and yes speed sails are small in these terms) lofts unless they are a franchise.
The reason that the Chinese ones are easier to spot is because of infringements on patents. So they had to use straight fibres as the load taking yarns. As you say it is not important; really? Isn't the point that the load bearing yarns follow the loads in the Sail and rig?
If a Sail loft is independent should it be selling north/ullmans/uksailmakers/hydes/doyles/chinasails? In my opinion no, as that is a franchise and not an independent......


Edited by fudheid - 07 Feb 13 at 9:39pm
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
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sounds like a scam scam
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by chrisg



Are the speed fireball sails "aero web?"
Have the forum jury forgotten RS and the 800's? guess those sailors weren't prepared to do the honourable thing from the Bloody Mary.




Well it looks like the fireball association has made the position clear.

I can't believe people do this stuff after the Merlin debacle of 2 years ago.
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In the interest of balance, I should point out that when I asked if Tape-Drive sails (among others) were class legal in April 2010, the Chairman of the Fireball International Technical Committee indicated that they would be.

The comments remained in public view on the International Association website, unchallenged and unaltered for over two years.


See copy of thread below:
____________________

            By: Roy Race (offline) on Monday, April 19 2010 @ 11:22 AM BST (Read 414 times)              

            Roy Race

Roy Race       

Hi,

Could someone (Tom?) clear up for me what is meant in the rules by:

"Sails shall be single ply soft sails made of woven or laminated ply."

Specifically, would 3DL, D4, Millenium, Vektor, Tape Drive, EPEX, FiberPath or any of the current load path technology sails or Cuben Fiber cloth be permitted as "laminated ply" under the rules?

Thanks.

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            By: Thomas Egli (offline) on Monday, April 19 2010 @ 10:38 PM BST  

            Thomas Egli

Thomas Egli   

The terms used in Rule 20.2 are defined in Section G of ISAF's

Equipment Rules of Sailing (ERS). In particular:

- G.1.1 defines "sail";

- G.1.4(b) defines "ply";

- G.1.4(c) defines "soft sail";

- G.1.4(d) defines "woven ply"

- G.1.4(e) defines "laminated ply"; and

- G.1.4(f) defines "single-ply sail".

 

From what I know of the various load path sails mentioned in your

post, they would all be considered "laminated ply" sails:

- North Sails 3DL (load-bearing filaments sandwiched by two films);

- Dimension-Polyant D4 (load-bearing filaments sandwiched by two

films);

- One Sails Millenium (load-bearing filaments sandwiched by two

films);

- One Sails Vektor (load-bearing filaments sandwiched by one layer

of film and one layer of tape);

- UK-Halsey Tape Drive (load-bearing tape bonded to a laminate

ply membrane that generally consists of a scrim sandwiched

by two films);

- Elvstrom EPEX (fundamentally similar to D4);

- Ullman FiberPath (fundamentally similar to D4);

- North Sails Cuben Fiber (load-bearing tapes sandwiched by

two polyester or fluoride films);

 

Please note that most of these sails have carbon filament versions,

which would not be allowed by our class rules. Filaments made of

non-carbon materials, e.g. polyester, dyneema, spectra, aramid/Kevlar,

Pentex..., are allowed.

 

Please let me know if additional information or clarification is required.


Best Regards,

Thomas Egli, Fireball International Technical Committee Chairman

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            By: Roy Race (offline) on Tuesday, April 20 2010 @ 04:12 PM BST       

            Roy Race

Roy Race       

Thanks Thomas, that's a very clear answer. I think I figured it out about a half hour after posting, but waited for your official reply anyway.

So the following would be not permitted:

1. Any sail material at all which contains carbon fibres

2. Monofilm

That's right, isn't it??

           

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            By: Thomas Egli (offline) on Wednesday, April 21 2010 @ 02:35 PM BST          

            Thomas Egli

Thomas Egli   

 

1. Anything with long-strand carbon fibres would be prohibited

under rule 8 - Prohibitions.

 

2. Monofilm would not be allowed because it is a single film

(that mono thing) rather than a laminated film, and because

it is easily damaged when folded flat, thereby contravening

ERS G.1.4(c) - Soft Sail. It also deteriorates badly under UV.

That being said, we trialed some monofilm jibs in the mid-

nineties. They worked out rather well, with decent shape

retention and good visibility, but were very prone to damage,

and tended to literally blow up at the worst possible moment.

 

3. I'm still not sure whether the North Sails 3Di process gives

a woven ply or laminate ply sail. One could argue that it's a

woven ply because there is no film, but one could also argue

that it's a laminate ply because it's made up of several layers

of combed-out fibre tape. I don't think North is rushing to use

the 3Di for dinghy sails, so we have some time to figure it out Smile

 

Best Regards,

Thomas Egli, Fireball International Technical Committee Chairman

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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 10:34pm
Well I guess from the information on their website they have revised their position.
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 10:45pm

The text from the Fireball website seems pretty clear to me:


Aeroweb Tape Drive Sails have been discussed for some years and will again be on the agenda at the Fireball International open forum this September during the World Championships in Slovenia. If agreed at this meeting the proposal will be sent out to each National Association around the world for their feedback and a possible vote to use this type of sails in the future.

At present Aeroweb Tape Drive Sails are not class legal contravening Rule 20.3.2 Secondary reinforcement:

"Secondary reinforcement of woven or laminated ply shall be within a distance from the sail corner measurement point or Cunningham eye of: Mainsail - 960mm, Foresail - 840mm, Spinnaker - 840mm. Stiffening of the secondary reinforcement by the addition of bonding agents, “close stitching” (consisting of parallel, or nearly parallel, lines of stitching, which are 40mm apart or less and are not sewing the edges of reinforcing patches) or otherwise is not permitted."

Tape Drive Sails are illegal because the tape creates a second layer throughout the sail and breaks the Secondary reinforcement Rule.
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by fudheid

You must teach English?


No. I don't teach anything and never have.

Originally posted by fudheid

The patents are still very much in the way that is why they all differ.These large outfits are pretty aggressive at protecting they're tech and continue to be litigious. These companies spent millions buying and developing they're technology. They do not tend to offer it to small (and yes speed sails are small in these terms) lofts unless they are a franchise.
The reason that the Chinese ones are easier to spot is because of infringements on patents. So they had to use straight fibres as the load taking yarns.


The patent on Tape Drive expired in 2004 which means that anyone can copy and sell the technology. They just can't call it Tape Drive as that's a registered name and such things never expire. The system Speed use is called Aero Web. Same technology under a different name. I don't know who manufactures it though.

Originally posted by fudheid

As you say it is not important; really? Isn't the point that the load bearing yarns follow the loads in the Sail and rig?


It's a question of scale. Compared to yachts the loads on dinghy sails are tiny and the load in the centre of a dinghy sail is very low so it doesn't really matter that the tapes are straight as the approximation is good enough for the loads experienced.

Originally posted by fudheid

If a Sail loft is independent should it be selling north/ullmans/uksailmakers/hydes/doyles/chinasails? In my opinion no, as that is a franchise and not an independent......


Technically a franchise would be exclusively tied to the supplying company and trade under their name.
Best wishes from deep in the woods

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Posts: 147 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jeepers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 11:04pm
Back to the original Q....Are the new Speed Sails 'team' all using sail numbers along the lines of '55' as a cheap advertising ploy? 20 pages!!!! 


Life's too short guys...
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