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Advertising via sail numbers? 55

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55
    Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by sandgrounder

<span style="line-height: 1.4;">Most clubs will turn a blind eye to a back marker using a replica sail, its just good to get them out learning and enjoying an open.  However, if you stand any chance of being near the front of the fleet then I think you really should be fully within class rules (whatever class that is).</span>

<span style="line-height: 1.4;">How does this work? Who is the arbiter who decides whether or not "you stand any chance of being near the front of the fleet" ?</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span>
[/QUOTE]

I guess the best arbitrator is the guy with common sense standing at the bar wondering where the 100+ boats at the weekend down his local club went....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by fudheid

Errrrr i think not. (nice myth that they are carrying on British built my arse!)
Think you will find that these speed sails/banks sails (tape drive copies) are from China Sail Factory.
They are easy to spot as The tape drive / 3DL / D4 membranes are PATENTED so all CSF can do is straight lines and not follow the catenary paths of the loads like a true load path sail.......
Yes they still make sails in their loft but they also import from China Sail Factory......
There are not that many facilities to make this sort of sail so unless it is a Uk tape drive, north 3dl or a Dimension polyant D4, ullman membrane, you are likely to be looking at a China sail membrane.



Speed used to built tape drive sails in their loft in Aldridge. The technology is available to any sailmaker who cares to buy it. That the tapes don't exactly follow the load paths is immaterial on a dinghy sail.
#
If it is immaterial then why bother?
It is not immaterial to the patent holder. ask north /doyle/ sobstad who spent alot of time and money deciding who could do what.....
tape drive is a trademarked membrane (just like everything in sails these days) owned by uksailmakers (butch halsey).
Any sailmaker can buy it if they have an account with a franchise like north/doyle/quantum/ullman/velman/China Sails/UKsails - i'm not sure if Hydes have a 'string' sail, but as an independant sailmaker you cannot buy these products unless you have done a deal with the larger loft.
The only membrane sails an independant sailmaker can buy is DIAX2LP or D4, one is Bainbridge and the other is Dimension polyant - both are cloth suppliers and not sailmakers. 
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sandgrounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 5:12pm
Most clubs will turn a blind eye to a back marker using a replica sail, its just good to get them out learning and enjoying an open.  However, if you stand any chance of being near the front of the fleet then I think you really should be fully within class rules (whatever class that is).
[/QUOTE]

How does this work? Who is the arbiter who decides whether or not "you stand any chance of being near the front of the fleet" ?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 5:06pm
Does a class need to be affiliated to the RYA to be an official class? I don't think it is as simple as unilaterally calling yourself the NearlyLaser class if you use a replica sail and wish to circumvent class rule issues, because the new class is not recognised by the RYA (even if the host club is prepared to recognise it).

However, the downside of that is that new classes, like the Icon, can not affiliate until 30 boats have been sold (I believe). So is the Icon legitimately allowed to enter? Surely the answer is yes?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by fudheid

Errrrr i think not. (nice myth that they are carrying on British built my arse!)
Think you will find that these speed sails/banks sails (tape drive copies) are from China Sail Factory.
They are easy to spot as The tape drive / 3DL / D4 membranes are PATENTED so all CSF can do is straight lines and not follow the catenary paths of the loads like a true load path sail.......
Yes they still make sails in their loft but they also import from China Sail Factory......
There are not that many facilities to make this sort of sail so unless it is a Uk tape drive, north 3dl or a Dimension polyant D4, ullman membrane, you are likely to be looking at a China sail membrane.



Speed used to built tape drive sails in their loft in Aldridge. The technology is available to any sailmaker who cares to buy it. That the tapes don't exactly follow the load paths is immaterial on a dinghy sail.
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fraggle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by boatshed

Originally posted by pondmonkey

so you'd not let some one race at a PY race with a rooster sail on a Laser? 


I'll answer with a question.   Could one enter the Laser Olympics with a Rooster sail ?

No because then you are not sailing a Laser.

I would also say if you turned up at any UKLA Open event you are likely to be advised that you are not allowed to sail.

At Hunts we allow 'replica/training' sails for our 'fleet' racing but we stipulate that you must use an official sail for the Open Meeting.

Isn't it about time we moved on? At least until we get an official answer?
 
Indeed for a UKLA affiliated laser open you can be removed from your circuit if you encourage replica sails (a couple of clubs got into issues by allowing replicas in their SI's a while ago). 
 
Most clubs will turn a blind eye to a back marker using a replica sail, its just good to get them out learning and enjoying an open.  However, if you stand any chance of being near the front of the fleet then I think you really should be fully within class rules (whatever class that is).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by boatshed

Originally posted by pondmonkey

so you'd not let some one race at a PY race with a rooster sail on a Laser? 


I'll answer with a question.   Could one enter the Laser Olympics with a Rooster sail ?

No because then you are not sailing a Laser.

I would also say if you turned up at any UKLA Open event you are likely to be advised that you are not allowed to sail.

At Hunts we allow 'replica/training' sails for our 'fleet' racing but we stipulate that you must use an official sail for the Open Meeting.

Isn't it about time we moved on? At least until we get an official answer?
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Soggy Badger.
 
Au contraire: Banks make all their sails at the loft in Park Gate - and what is more, make them very well indeed. What is more, because they are independant and do actually 'make' their sails, they have a damn good idea how to make changes. The Contender sail they made for me recently - to a very different and 'demanding' set of requirements, is a superb sail that works just how i wanted it too and is very well made.
 
D

Errrrr i think not. (nice myth that they are carrying on British built my arse!)
Think you will find that these speed sails/banks sails (tape drive copies) are from China Sail Factory.
They are easy to spot as The tape drive / 3DL / D4 membranes are PATENTED so all CSF can do is straight lines and not follow the catenary paths of the loads like a true load path sail.......
Yes they still make sails in their loft but they also import from China Sail Factory......
There are not that many facilities to make this sort of sail so unless it is a Uk tape drive, north 3dl or a Dimension polyant D4, ullman membrane, you are likely to be looking at a China sail membrane.

Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 3:52pm
2 points -

1. the NOR should clearly state what the policy on out-of-class boats will be. This could be a PY penalty, or the creation of a separate Experimental category with separate prize, or some other solution. All competitors should know how this will be dealt with before entering.
Maybe, the big winter events could get together and agree a common policy - perhaps with advice from the RYA.

2 The class rules that apply must be the version that is freely available. For International Classes the ISAF website version should be the one that applies - When there is a rule change the class should hassle ISAF IT to ge the new version posted. For other classes the rules themselves should stipulate where the authoratitive version is to be posted. It would be totally unfair if the class rules that apply were an unpublished version voted in after a heated debate at an AGM after several  ammendments.... with the authoratitve version being a piece of much scribbled upon piece of paper lying in the Hon Secs 'to do' tray


Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

haha - no, and I don't need to answer your question as the context of an Olympics vs an amateur Pursuit Race for charity in the middle of nowhere for an eclectic mix of UK dinghy-dwellers render your point of view from hard-liner to slightly retarded... 


It's not really a hard line to expect the entrants to have boats that meet the class rules. 

The Tiger is a very worthy  charity race and clearly taken extremely seriously at the front end.  It gets a high profile in the yachting press and  allegations of the winning boat using illegal sails is not good for the sport .


Edited by boatshed - 07 Feb 13 at 2:14pm
Steve
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