New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Advertising via sail numbers? 55
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Advertising via sail numbers? 55

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1112131415 67>
Author
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202
Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55
    Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:33am
not at all Steve, if the RO is using PY correctly, then local adjustments would be in place anyway.  I can see no harm in clocking an additional 50 point penalty on anyone declaring themselves out of class with a performance enhancement trial- like for example, sail developments, if the nature of the event was taking things as seriously as some sailors clearly believe they should. 

Similarly what would you do if a chap showed up to race his Vago singlehanded (perfectly do-able)... it's PY rating is 1064 on the list... as a doublehander.    IMHO, turning him away totally undervalues the one good thing PY racing has going for it... bringing people from different classes together for fun sailing.


Edited by pondmonkey - 07 Feb 13 at 9:35am
Back to Top
2547 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151
Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:35am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

There is a genuine question over the Fireball class rules and tapes... no one has, in an official capacity, answered this question.  



Anyone???
Back to Top
boatshed View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 12 Apr 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 457
Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:36am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

Originally posted by boatshed

Originally posted by JimC

[QUOTE=boatshed] If you did declare it, whatever the rights and wrongs of accepting the entry might be, I don't believe Rule 2 applies.


So, it's up to the RO to accept or decline the entry of a boat that declares it's self out of class ?

fundamentally yes, in a handicap event at least.


So, by accepting the entry the onus is on the RO who by default will declare the entry legal.   Every competitor should then protest the RO.

I know this is a hard line and I accept development of kit is vital to keep classes alive and the Fireball, for instance,  is a great example of a very active class.    Classes that wish to evolve have ample opportunities to do it 'in-house' w/e in and w/e out until they achieve consensus in their association for a rule change.   
Steve
Back to Top
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202
Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:38am
.

Edited by pondmonkey - 07 Feb 13 at 9:42am
Back to Top
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202
Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:41am
Originally posted by boatshed

Every competitor should then protest the RO.
    

no, not all.  If the RO decide it's a valid entry as a LipstickX, with an appropriate PY, then the other competitors have a choice...

Race it or f**k off  - there is not an option to protest as what are they protesting against???

Most will race, after all surely the point of travelling to a handicap event is to race boats you wouldn't get to race in either home waters or class events????
Back to Top
rb_stretch View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 23 Aug 10
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 742
Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:41am
Originally posted by boatshed

Originally posted by rb_stretch

If a competitor is knowingly out of class and declares so to the RO beforehand, the RO has basically three choices:
 
- let them race as any other class boat
- penalise their handicap
- not let them enter the race
 
 


If these are the choices the RO can make, then the first two cannot be the right decisions.  

First, the boat is out of class and will successfully be protested be any of the competitors.

Second, the RO has no experience, evidence or knowledge of what a correct PY should be and the RYA PY scheme can not help.  By accepting the entry and adjusting the PY, the RO would rightly be open to protest by any  competitor regarding the adjusted PY and it's correctness - including the out-of-class entry. 

The third choice is the only fair decision which is right for the race to proceed and not make a nonsense out of the race.  


 
On the first point, I think that is OK. If other competitors are taking the event that seriously they can protest and no-one should stop that. I suspect that as was the case for last year's Merlin, the only other competitors who would have know it was out of class were actually fine with it.
 
On the second point, fair point. However I don't think it would take long to come up with a sensible guide for ROs. I'm not a PY expert at all, but adding 50 points for an out of class boat, doesn't sound unreasonable. The point is not to be exact, but to ensure out of class boats are unlikely to win. Again if other feel strongly they can protest, but at least they have that choice.
 
On the third point this is arguably the only correct answer, but I suspect that most would be happy for experimental boats to race to help move sailing as a whole forward.
 
I think the Paul Elvestrom quote before entirely sums up the sentiment behind my thinking.
Back to Top
GarethT View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 714
Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:44am
plus if you don't like what the RO has done you can always bitch about it on a forum Wink
Back to Top
boatshed View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 12 Apr 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 457
Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:44am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

not at all Steve, if the RO is using PY correctly, then local adjustments would be in place anyway.  I can see no harm in clocking an additional 50 point penalty on anyone declaring themselves out of class with a performance enhancement trial- like for example, sail developments, if the nature of the event was taking things as seriously as some sailors clearly believe they should. 

Similarly what would you do if a chap showed up to race his Vago singlehanded (perfectly do-able)... it's PY rating is 1064 on the list... as a doublehander.    IMHO, turning him away totally undervalues the one good thing PY racing has going for it... bringing people from different classes together for fun sailing.


I accept all of this in say, club racing.   But we are talking about a major PY event with some pro sailors and manufacturers using the event to promote their products.   If I had an out-of-class boat accepted for entry,  with say minor breaches of class rules and was slammed with a 50 point PY hit, I would sail and protest the RO for an excessive PY hit.  

This would be just a legitimate as any other competitor protesting the RO on the basis the PY hit should have been more severe.

Jeez, thank god there is no prize money at stake.    It would all end up in court.
Steve
Back to Top
GarethT View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 714
Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:45am
What rule would you protest the RO under?
Back to Top
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202
Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:53am
Originally posted by boatshed



I accept all of this in say, club racing.   But we are talking about a major PY event with some pro sailors and manufacturers using the event to promote their products.   If I had an out-of-class boat accepted for entry,  with say minor breaches of class rules and was slammed with a 50 point PY hit, I would sail and protest the RO for an excessive PY hit.  

This would be just a legitimate as any other competitor protesting the RO on the basis the PY hit should have been more severe.

Jeez, thank god there is no prize money at stake.    It would all end up in court.

I guess that basically polarises our differing opinions... I frankly find it absurd that there could ever be a 'major PY event' that would mean turning folks away- this isn't the Endeavour.  Surely the fundamental purpose of PY is to bring all sorts of boats together- as fairly as possible.  Save class racing intricacies for class racing surely?

You can't protest a RO for applying a locally adjusted PY for any boat (note the word 'boat' not 'class').  The rules don't enable this.  You may appeal before racing, but ultimately you hit the water at your own discretion with the PY set by the RO.  

If you are making a point about amateur dinghy sailing being taken over by semi-pros and works boats, well that'd probably be more in line with the thread title.. and I'd wager a pint we'll be on the same song sheet for that one.


Edited by pondmonkey - 07 Feb 13 at 9:55am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1112131415 67>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy