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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mark room or Port/Starboard
    Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 10:38pm
In case 15, there is no overlap at any point. 

Match racing tactics 101. If clear ahead at the top mark, slow and get the opposition overlapped outside you. They then have to give you room to tack. Defence is never to give the overlap - keep eyes open, and match speed with boat ahead. 

Again, defns. Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by Simon368

if the definition of mark room is: 'room to round the mark as neccesary to sail the course' and the course is to tack round to sail bck in the direction you have just come, how can you not be allowed to tack.

 b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.

You're quoting 2013-2016 rules, which don't come into effect for a couple of weeks. 
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by Simon368

if the definition of mark room is: 'room to round the mark as neccesary to sail the course' and the course is to tack round to sail bck in the direction you have just come, how can you not be allowed to tack.

b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.

Getting a little bit ahead of ourselves here:  that's the 2013 definition <g>.
 
But it makes no difference.  Rule 18.1 does not change in 2013.
 
From an application of rules point of view, the reason you are not allowed room to complete your tack once you have passed head to wind is that, in the specific circumstances where the proper course of the other boat at the mark is to tack, once you pass head to wind, you are not entitled to any mark-room at all, because rule 18 ceases to apply.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 7:11am
The way to avoid this situation is to slow down a force the outside boat to stay outside of you. That way they cannot so a cut back type manoever as has been done here because they will be too far alongside.

As for right and wrong in this case I would not like to call as I thought that if you acquired right of way because of another boats actions (which happened in this case) the requirement to keep clear was always firmly on the boat that bestowed the right of way? I do not have a rule book to hand though so i cannot quote the relevant rule number.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 10:10am
Originally posted by jeffers

As for right and wrong in this case I would not like to call

Definitely unwise to call without knowing how the other boat saw it. Its amazing how often two folks' perception of the same incident can be very different.
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gerry L View Drop Down
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Posts: 1 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gerry L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 10:16am
I was sailing the Streaker and  this is as I see the incedent
As we got near the mark I tried to get an inside overlap but he wouldnt let me so I went wide so as to round up tight round the mark, the Lightning hardened up and once clear of the mark proceded to tack on to port. I was slightly higher haveing rouned up well away from the mark,if I had carried on I would have hit him amidships but managed to bearaway nearly enough but just touched his stearn.
As I am awear I didnot have to give him room to tack so it was simpley a case of P&S. ie he should not have tacked in my water and carried on till I tacked.
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 10:49am
Originally posted by jeffers

As for right and wrong in this case I would not like to call as I thought that if you acquired right of way because of another boats actions (which happened in this case) the requirement to keep clear was always firmly on the boat that bestowed the right of way? I do not have a rule book to hand though so i cannot quote the relevant rule number.

If you sail from clear astern to leeward means you change from give way to right of way thanks to your own actions. therefore 15 applies to you. If you establish the overlap within 2bl, leeward can sail no higher than her proper course. 

If the initial situation as described by the OP is something like this, then yellow is subject to 16.1 during her luff, and as described above, blue is constrained by 15 &17 after she establishes the overlap to leeward. 

2bl 
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by jeffers

As for right and wrong in this case I would not like to call as I thought that if you acquired right of way because of another boats actions (which happened in this case) the requirement to keep clear was always firmly on the boat that bestowed the right of way? I do not have a rule book to hand though so i cannot quote the relevant rule number.

If you sail from clear astern to leeward means you change from give way to right of way thanks to your own actions. therefore 15 applies to you.
While its true that if you acquire right of way because of your own actions rule 15 applies, 'because of your own actions' is NOT the test.
 
The test in rule 15 is acquiring right of way OTHER THAN because of the other boat's actions.
 
Thus in a situation like this, with a hook up from clear astern, you don't have to say the right of way changes because of Astern's actions:  it suffices that it was NOT because of Ahead's actions.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 11:06am
Originally posted by gerry L

the Lightning hardened up and once clear of the mark proceded to tack on to port. I was slightly higher haveing rouned up well away from the mark,if I had carried on I would have hit him amidships but managed to bearaway nearly enough but just touched his stearn.
As I am awear I didnot have to give him room to tack so it was simpley a case of P&S. ie he should not have tacked in my water and carried on till I tacked.

So it's back to the fundamental question I asked in post #7 about the relationship between the location of the boats and the mark when contact/course alteration to avoid contact was made. If the Lightning was past the mark, then she's no longer "at the mark" so mark room has finished. If she wasn't past the mark, then she's still has right to mark room. 

He said/he said on the internet is never going to get to an answer on that one. 

If you were overlapped outside and to leeward of him, then you did have to give him room to tack whilst he's at the mark - again, see the last sentence of the definition of mark room. 




Edited by Presuming Ed - 18 Dec 12 at 11:25am
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 12:34pm
This is why when you are inside boat it pays to cover these situations by slowing down and forcing the outside boat to go round you, that way the gap is just not there or is too small be be used.

From the description of 1 helm he was tacking at the mark, from the description of the other helm he was past when mark when he tacked.

It will come down to 'facts found' by the PC, only then can the rules be applied (this is why sometimes it is important to have 

If you believe poster A then the Streaker is at fault, if you believe poster B then the Lightning is at fault... A witness would be most useful and probably key to this depending on what each party said.

I would be inclined to believe that if the Streaker was on course to hit admiships on the Lightning that the Lightning was past the mark and as such had lost the right to tack as they were no longer 'at' the mark (that and if there was room for the Streaker get get inside, that is usually a sign that they are too far away to be considered at).

Just my 2p....
Paul
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