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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mark room or Port/Starboard
    Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 7:11am
The way to avoid this situation is to slow down a force the outside boat to stay outside of you. That way they cannot so a cut back type manoever as has been done here because they will be too far alongside.

As for right and wrong in this case I would not like to call as I thought that if you acquired right of way because of another boats actions (which happened in this case) the requirement to keep clear was always firmly on the boat that bestowed the right of way? I do not have a rule book to hand though so i cannot quote the relevant rule number.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by Simon368

if the definition of mark room is: 'room to round the mark as neccesary to sail the course' and the course is to tack round to sail bck in the direction you have just come, how can you not be allowed to tack.

b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.

Getting a little bit ahead of ourselves here:  that's the 2013 definition <g>.
 
But it makes no difference.  Rule 18.1 does not change in 2013.
 
From an application of rules point of view, the reason you are not allowed room to complete your tack once you have passed head to wind is that, in the specific circumstances where the proper course of the other boat at the mark is to tack, once you pass head to wind, you are not entitled to any mark-room at all, because rule 18 ceases to apply.
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by Simon368

if the definition of mark room is: 'room to round the mark as neccesary to sail the course' and the course is to tack round to sail bck in the direction you have just come, how can you not be allowed to tack.

 b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.

You're quoting 2013-2016 rules, which don't come into effect for a couple of weeks. 
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 10:38pm
In case 15, there is no overlap at any point. 

Match racing tactics 101. If clear ahead at the top mark, slow and get the opposition overlapped outside you. They then have to give you room to tack. Defence is never to give the overlap - keep eyes open, and match speed with boat ahead. 

Again, defns. Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.
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Posts: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon368 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 10:38pm
if the definition of mark room is: 'room to round the mark as neccesary to sail the course' and the course is to tack round to sail bck in the direction you have just come, how can you not be allowed to tack.

 

b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.



Edited by Simon368 - 17 Dec 12 at 10:39pm
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Still at the mark. Ping blue for not giving mark room. 
I agree that @3.5 B is not giving mark-room, and that, Y is entitled to luff as hard as she likes, as long as she does not pass head to wind.
 
@4, Y is past head to wind, rule 18 is off, and B breaks rule 16.1.

Yellow is overlapped inside to windward. Defn of mark room includes room for inside boat to tack. Yellow has right to tack and sail proper course at mark. 
When L, in tacking, passed head to wind, boats came to be on opposite tacks, and the proper course of S at the mark, but not of L, was to tack.  Rule 18, from that instant ceased to apply (rule 18.1( b )), (Case 15 second last sentence).  Room to tack only allows room until you have passed head to wind.
 
If A were to pass head to wind, then at that moment all parts of rule 18
would cease to apply because the boats would be on opposite tacks (see
rule 18.1(b)).
 
 
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Still at the mark. Ping blue for not giving mark room. 
I agree that @3.5 B is not giving mark-room, and that, Y is entitled to luff as hard as she likes, as long as she does not pass head to wind.
 
@4, Y is past head to wind, rule 18 is off, and B breaks rule 16.1.

Yellow is overlapped inside to windward. Defn of mark room includes room for inside boat to tack. Yellow has right to tack and sail proper course at mark. 
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Posts: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon368 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 9:54pm
AlexM
 
see previous page there is a website address. Only found it today
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Still at the mark. Ping blue for not giving mark room. 
I agree that @3.5 B is not giving mark-room, and that, Y is entitled to luff as hard as she likes, as long as she does not pass head to wind.
 
@4, Y is past head to wind, rule 18 is off, and B breaks rule 16.1.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by Simon368

Hi Rupert, I dont think the tide is relavent as this would apply to any mark where you are reaching in to and away from the mark. The only proper course was to tack round the mark. The Streaker arguement was that once I had tacked the rounding was complete and only port / starboard applied. The question is does it?
S was partly right, but rule 10, port/starboard was not the only rule that still applied.
 
L was initially overlapped inside and entitled to mark-room, thus the mark-room to which she was entitled included room to tack (Definition:  mark-room), as long as it lasted.
 
When L, in tacking, passed head to wind, boats came to be on opposite tacks, and the proper course of S at the mark, but not of L, was to tack.  Rule 18, from that instant ceased to apply (rule 18.1( b )), (Case 15 last sentence).  Room to tack only allows room until you have passed head to wind.
 
You said S hardened up and contact occurred.  That sounds like S, the right of way boat changing course did not give L room to keep clear, so S broke rule 16.1, and quite likely rule 14.
 
L on Port did not keep clear of S on starboard, so L broke rule 10, but if S did not give L room to keep clear, then L would have been compelled to break rule 10 by S breaking rule 16.1 and L shold be exonerated in accordance with rule 64.1( c ).
 
Originally posted by Simon368

i will try to use the software to show positions but I was 'overlapped to windward and on the indside 'as I approached the mark and the mark would have been alonside my staboard side amidships as I existed the tack on port
 
The issue is not whether your were 'at' the mark (which on your diagram, I don't dispute you were).  On my analysis, as you originally described it, once you passsed head to wind, rule 18 went off in its entiriey.  I agree with PEd that, as diagrammed, S had already failed to give you mark-room before you luffed and passed head to wind.
 
Originally posted by Rupert

Surely there has to be time and opportunity to keep clear following the tack?  If the tide is taking you, then opportunity is not there. And if you are still in the process of rounding the mark, then you still have mark room. And, as was said, if a boat deliberately luffs to hit you, they are in the wrong, whatever else happens.
 
Rupert, please join us in the 21st century.  The entitlement conferred by rule 16.1 is an entitlement to room, being 'The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring
promptly in a seamanlike way'.  The concept of time is conveyed by 'promptly' and there is nothing about 'opportunity'.


Edited by Brass - 17 Dec 12 at 10:02pm
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