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Windward mark: Both must tack |
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gordon 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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 Topic: Windward mark: Both must tackPosted: 14 May 10 at 4:44pm |
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n the scenario in the diagram S should stand on and sail beyond the mark, as she is entitled to do as long as she keeps clear of P (once P has tacked). She can then tack and bear away, leaving herself clear ahead and able to round the mark on port, luff hard and tack without P being able to prevent her. Obviously S didn't do much team racing at college!
Gordon |
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Gordon
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piglet
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Joined: 04 Jan 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
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Posted: 16 Oct 12 at 4:52pm |
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I'll recycle this old post as it is similar but different to my (sons) scenario.
Radial & Merlin both on starboard but both below the layline due to light wind and foul tide.
Merlin overtakes Radial to windward, Radial tacks onto port and crosses Merlins stern. Merlin tacks onto port. Merlin reaches the zone before Radial though not sure when, boats must have been overlapped when on port. Radial then tacks back onto starboard on the layline, has gained through the tacks and hails starboard. Merlin tacks, there is no boat contact but Merlin ends up wrapped round the mark and most displeased with Radial.
My guess is the Merlin had rights to room but I'm not sure why?
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 16 Oct 12 at 5:46pm |
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I can't make your description work with who was ahead where, but my impression is that Merlin had no rights.
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piglet
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Joined: 04 Jan 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
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Posted: 16 Oct 12 at 6:21pm |
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Thanks Jim, sorry if my description is a bit woolly.
Basically both approached on starboad then both onto port then both back onto starboard again with Merlin stuck on the mark and Radial sailing away.
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MattK
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 02 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 221 |
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Posted: 16 Oct 12 at 7:31pm |
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If the merlin was overlapped on the radial when they entered the zone on port, the radial had to give the merlin room, if it didn't the merlin had no rights to water
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 16 Oct 12 at 9:00pm |
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Gordon and Brass are much better at this stuff than me, but I'll have a shot...
Case 95 in the case book: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012updatedNov2011-[11669].pdf is probably one to look at. So approaching the zone the boats are on port tack and M is to windward of and thus inside R. R is Right of way boat, but M has mark room. R then tacks. First question: did R complete her tack in accordance with Rules 10 and 13 - ie M did not have to start to take avoiding action until R was on a close hauled course. If R fouled M then R is toast. OK, now (see Case 95) M is no longer entitled to mark room because they are on opposite tacks. R is ROW boat and its plain port/starboard. M mst tack (or go behind R) and does so. Now M has tacked in the zone so 18.3 applies (still reading Case 95). So the next question is whether M completed her tack without breaking Rules 10 and 13. Because they were on opposite tacks at the time with no mark room involved then I think if M had to tack below the lay line that was just tough. If, after the tack, still noone has fouled anyone, now both boats are on the same tack, in the zone, and M is inside boat. Rule 18.3 still applies because there was a tack in the zone. Now we lose Case 95, but as I see it, although M is now sort of entitled to mark room again, 18.3 means that she cannot sail a course that pushes R above close hauled. If that means M can't get round the mark I think that's tough again. So I think it all hangs on where and how R tacked. If the Radial tacked smack on the lay line and without fouling the Merlin then the Merlin is out of luck. The trouble I am having with this is that from my image of what happened I don't really see that the Radial could have been far away enough from the Merlin to put a legal tack in, bearing in mind that a few seconds before they had been ducking transoms. If the Radial didn't have room to put a tack in then their only choice was to wait until the Merlin tacked. |
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sargesail
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Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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Posted: 16 Oct 12 at 9:07pm |
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I'd agree with that - and add for amplification that if the Merlin did not start her tack until the Radial was tack complete, yet managed to not hit/be hit by the radial then by performance she proves the radial's tack to be legit...and the Merlin can have no complaints.....if on the other hand the Merlin had to start the tack before the radial was tack complete then it's time for the Protest Room.
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Brass
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Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Posted: 17 Oct 12 at 2:39am |
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Pretty good analysis right up until here.
M is not entitled to mark-room.
The only two rules that confer mark-room are rules 18.2 and 18.3. When rule 18.3 applies (when a boat tacks in the zone while another is fetching), rule 18.2 does not apply (rule 18.3). So the only applicable entitlement to room is that provided in rule 18.3( b ), which is an entitlement for the fetching boat (in this case R), to mark-room if she becomes overlapped inside M. Here M is overlapped inside R, so neither boat is entitled to mark-room.
M is the leeward overlapped right of way boat (rule 11), so if R bears away on top of her, R breaks rule 11. By virtue of her right of way, R, keeping clear to windward of M should allow M to get around inside her.
M is subject to a limitation under rule 18.3( a ) that she shall not prevent R from passing the mark on the required side, so she may need to bear away around the mark pretty quickly so as not to 'prevent' R from passing it
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 17 Oct 12 at 8:42am |
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OK, you need to explain that to me a bit more... I see the non-applicability of 18.2, that's clear enough, but the first bit of 18.3a troubles me.
My emphasis. Assuming that R was smack on the lay line, then in order to get a Merlin (which is some 7 feet wide) round the mark it seems to me that the R is likely to be pushed way above close hauled if the boats are overlapped. So although windward must keep clear, I don't see why that entitles L to luff up to get round the mark if in doing so W must sail above close hauled. Doesn't the restriction on forcing above close hauled continue until the are out of the zone as well as the rstriction on preventing from passing the mark? But I guess we need a few more facts here again. Were M and R overlapped after M completed her tack? Was M on the layline or below it? Why did M get tangled in the mark? Was it avoiding a collision because R didn't keep clear, or was it, with little way on after tacking and (possibly) below the lay line, they plain couldn't get round the mark? Did R have to sail above close hauled at any time to keep clear? Was R bang on the lay line or above it? Was there enough room between M and R to get M round the mark? |
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piglet
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Joined: 04 Jan 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
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Posted: 17 Oct 12 at 11:30am |
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I must confess to being 110 miles away at the time, but, based on my understanding of the scenario:
JimC wrote: The trouble I am having with this is that from my image of what happened I don't really see that the Radial could have been far away enough from the Merlin to put a legal tack in
R maintains he tacked outside the zone and that M had plenty of time to respond after R hailed.
I suspect M may see it differently, but M did manage to tack without boat contact.
Were M and R overlapped after M completed her tack? Was M on the layline or below it?
Yes they were overlapped, M never made it to the layline.
Why did M get tangled in the mark? Was it avoiding a collision because R didn't keep clear, or was it, with little way on after tacking and (possibly) below the lay line, they plain couldn't get round the mark?
M was forced to tack early to keep clear of R and plain couldn't get round the mark.
Did R have to sail above close hauled at any time to keep clear?
No, R stood on, he doesn't pay the bills. Was R bang on the lay line or above it?
Bang on.
Was there enough room between M and R to get M round the mark?
No, R had shut the door.
Don't forget the tide pushing them both back towards the mark, hence M's predicament.
Thanks chaps, this is good.
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