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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Jun 12 at 10:44pm
The rules are clear enough Rupert. The (presumably overtaking) assy boat in you scenario has no rights over the windward boat until it has sailed through its lee and broken the overlap. This is basically how its always been for boats overtaking to leewards. The big change in the rules compared to the Golden Age of dinghy sailing (when it was allowed to be fun) is the situation for an overtaking boat passing to windward which now needs to break the overlap to deny the leeward boat luffing rights compared to the old "mast abeam" rule.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 12 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

The rules are clear enough Rupert. The (presumably overtaking) assy boat in you scenario has no rights over the windward boat until it has sailed through its lee and broken the overlap. ......


Twaddle!
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r2d2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 12 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by SoggyBadger

The rules are clear enough Rupert. The (presumably overtaking) assy boat in you scenario has no rights over the windward boat until it has sailed through its lee and broken the overlap. ......


Twaddle!

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JimC View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SoggyBadger

The rules are clear enough Rupert.

Obviously not clear enough: because I'm afraid that's not the case. The windward boat is still the windward boat and must keep clear of the leeward boat. Its just that if the leeward boat establishes the overlap from behind she may not sail above her proper course.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 12 at 7:01pm
What she can't do is "luff" - ie change course with the intent to force the other boat off course. If the intent is to sail the course she would sail in the absence of the other boat, then there isn't a problem in the rules.
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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 12 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Twaddle!


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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 12 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by Rupert

What she can't do is "luff" - ie change course with the intent to force the other boat off course. If the intent is to sail the course she would sail in the absence of the other boat, then there isn't a problem in the rules.

The rules aren't about intention. They're about what boats actually do. Altering course to windward is luffing. From the RRS: 

Terminology A term used in the sense stated in the Definitions is printed in italics or, in preambles, in bold italics (for example, racing and racing). ‘Racing rule’ means a rule in The Racing Rules of Sailing. ‘Boat’ means a sailboat and the crew on board. ‘Race committee’ includes any person or committee performing a race committee function. A ‘change’ to a rule includes an addition to it or deletion of all or part of it. ‘National authority’ means an ISAF member national authority. Other words and terms are used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use.

 From the Oxford dictionary website: 

luff
 
Pronunciation: /lʌf/
Sailing
noun
the edge of a fore-and-aft sail next to the mast or stay:
if your luff is flapping, pull the sail towards you to fill it with wind

verb
[with object]
steer (a yacht) nearer the wind:
I came aft and luffed her for the open sea
obstruct (an opponent in yacht racing) by sailing closer to the wind:
he can luff you, but must leave you room to get clear

The limit on how high a leeward boat can luff is provided by RRS 17. 

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

The limit on the speed of the luff is 16.1. 

16 CHANGING COURSE
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.


Edited by Presuming Ed - 01 Jul 12 at 9:02pm
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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 12 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by Rupert

What she can't do is "luff" - ie change course with the intent to force the other boat off course. If the intent is to sail the course she would sail in the absence of the other boat, then there isn't a problem in the rules.


Sadly I don't think that's quite correct. The problem comes with the definition of "proper course" (see ISAF Case 14). Even within the restrictions of rule 17 (which I think covers the scenario we're discussing here) the leeward boat can still change course as long as she gives the windward boat the opportunity to keep clear.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 12 at 9:52pm
OK, clear this up once and for all then, please? Is the boat to leeward entitled to sail her proper course however she got to her position, or not? And if not, when isn't she?
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 12 at 10:16pm
yes she can but she must give the other boat room to keep clear

Edited by r2d2 - 01 Jul 12 at 10:16pm
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