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winging it View Drop Down
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Joined: 22 Mar 07
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: V Twin
    Posted: 25 May 12 at 1:42pm
any minute now I'll be floating my mystery kevlar hull - very light - complete with contender mast (alloy) boom (carbon) and sail (dacron)  The hulls is probably 25 kg lighter than a contender hull BUT it is also 2ft shorter.  The shortness worries me more than the weight.

should be interesting though.
the same, but different...

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Neptune View Drop Down
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 12 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by robinft

An RS600 is a Contender on weight loss and steroids. I much prefer the Contender, it's a proper boat.

possibly but then you sail a half cocked squib (sandhopper) also  Wink


Edited by Neptune - 25 May 12 at 1:44pm
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winging it View Drop Down
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 12 at 1:50pm
why are you all so obsessed about the weight of the contender?  It's a bit like constantly asking 'does my bum look big in this?'

the answer is usually yes, but who gives a damn?
the same, but different...

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robinft View Drop Down
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Posts: 252 		Post Options Post Options   Quote robinft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 12 at 1:50pm
I raced Contenders in the eighties and even built 2 from scratch. I tried the 600 early in its life and didn't like it. Have sailed the 700 and MPS too and much preferred the MPS.
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 12 at 2:15pm
"why are you all so obsessed about the weight of the contender?  It's a bit like constantly asking 'does my bum look big in this?'

the answer is usually yes, but who gives a damn?"  Clap Still looks the most elegant wiring single hander to be had and feels like it's been brought up to have nice manners.

All design is compromise, super, super light is not always better it the broadest sense. It's just about what you want to optimise your design for, ultimate speed, ease of handling (on the beach or beating & tacking through heavy chop), cost, durability & ease of ownership.

I like reasonably light easily driven boats that accelerate away from a gust rather than getting knocked over and trying to round up. But then I also appreciate a little mass to help me through a particularly crucial tack in an unforgiving harbour mouth with rusty piling one side and boulders the other.  
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 12 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Ruscoe

I happen to agree about weight, Whilst there are some classes I believe would benefit from substantial weight loss (contender) I think a bit of weight helps with a boats "idle" characteristics.  I like a boat to be slightly less full on in between races, I like to be able to have a bit of control whilst launching and dumping my trolley.  Whilst a light boat accelerates quickly I guess it does not hold its momentum in the lulls as well.  Not to mention, a higher minimum weight (as a general rule) should help with longevity.

 

As an example, I am not sure a 49er would be any quicker if it was massively lighter.  I should imagine it would be one hell of a handful and would possibly spoil some of the class characteristics.


How much direct evidence does it take? The 49er's drag has been measured at various all-up weights, proving that  more weight= more drag at all speeds.

The performance of the 49er Fx recently shows that weight is not the only issue, quality of design, aerodynamic drag, and waterline length are all important factors too.

Regarding the ease of handling and stability, hull weight will usually improve static stability, but once the boat is moving, the hydrodynamics of the hull and foils are far more significant. Even a fairly traditional boat like the RS400 is far tippier when it's not moving. Of course if we were designing the 400 today, a lighter carbon rig would help static stability as well as speed through waves.
There is no doubt of any of that, also no doubt that the 9er is a fine boat and PDQ!  But treducing the hull weight SIGNIFICANTLY would change the characteristics of the boat, i should imagine in the 9ers case, not for the better.  I have no evidence hence why is said i Should imagine!!
 
 

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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 12 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by winging it

why are you all so obsessed about the weight of the contender?  It's a bit like constantly asking 'does my bum look big in this?'

the answer is usually yes, but who gives a damn?
Nessa, i love the contender! I am even looking for a really cheap (and heavier still) one for big wind fun, should the D-one not be available.  As a boat though i think it could afford to lose a little (but then so could i) Wink

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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 12 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

  I have no evidence hence why is said i Should imagine!!
 
 

I imagine that also.  I also imagine that if had been a desirable thing to do, then they would have done it when they changed the sails and mast- both for the mens in the new rig and for the women's in the FX rig. 

I also imagine as a boat specifically designed for Olympic grade sailing, where the cost of the equipment at the sharper end is really small fry in total campaign terms, they do not have the same commercial considerations as someone lipsticking an old design with 500 active customers to keep happy.

It is precisely because they have chosen not to reduce the weight that I imagine weight reduction wouldn't actually be desirable to the boat's sailing characteristics in this specific high performance boat.  Unlike some other forum folk, I tend to think the various stakeholders in the 49er class tend to know what they're doing, and certainly know what they want.


Edited by pondmonkey - 25 May 12 at 2:59pm
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 823 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 12 at 3:10pm
why are you all so obsessed about the weight of the contender?  It's a bit like constantly asking 'does my bum look big in this?'

the answer is usually yes, but who gives a damn?

Well, I am - not about my bum or yours, but about the weight of the Contender on the beach - so much so that I'm pondering spending a stupid amount of money on one of these:



I did suggest that we should install an aerial line that could lift boats straight out of the water and up the beach, but no one took me seriously, can't think why. Disapprove
Peter
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mongrel View Drop Down
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Posts: 304 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 12 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Completely agree that very few one design classes would do well by reducing the minimum weight. That is a separate question from designing a new class, remember this is the Dinghy Development forum, not the One Design fan club.
Sorry, please feel free to remove my posts then! Confused
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