V Twin

The icon is 87kg all up.
That is not bad, in a last-century way.
But you have to remember it has also shed the spinnaker, so you might as well ditch the crew as well.

Of course we could have gone lighter still ...  all classes are compromises and that does include some nod towards costs.  However Icon IS 85-87kg all up - and that is about 45+ kg less than a 400 and still gives us a strong and durable production boat  ... you could say that differance is over 90lbs as the real luddites might recall.  Nothing wrong with the 400, it does what it does very well indeed,  I'm just using it as a well known example, but it is about 50% heavier all up than Icon.

That lower weight is substantial and really does help the Icon cause, allows a modest rig and light sheet loads both ends of Icon and in summary it does what we wanted in the first place rather well.  Icon is not targetting any particular exisitng class  but it does provide something new and a bit alternative at a very reasonable package price.  

Now there are days you might like to could lose the crew (Crews out there - you might like to consider loosing the helm as an alternative) - BUT in most breeze you would be considerably slower of course without that mobile weight.   But it is does take quite a lot of crew input beyond shoving lard around to do well - the sailplan is designed around the dangle system and the jib is a tad bigger at 3.6m than that sailcloth sample on a N12 ... (No don't write - only teasing)  if the crew does not 'do it' right you can forget a decent result - there is a lot more than just sheeting involved .. it feeds the main of course and not just close hauled.   

Now guys go out and actually WEIGH your current boat and let the world know what is REALLY tips the scales at ....   not just the hull mind you .. the whole lot.   We've did it with many different classes during the Icon development.  We expected some differences but were staggered in what we found - There are very significant differences between the claims and the actuals on many boats and when the rigs are included the figures can get a bit frightening.   Naturally the claims are lower than the actuals in nearly, but not all, cases.

Anyway - must now depart  very soon for a bit of light afternoon / evening sailing ... in Icon.  And then a bite to eat washed down with a decent pint...  Suggest you get off the keyboard as well and just ....SAIL.  Far to much serious stuff here !

Mike L.

Originally posted by 2547... Here are some actual weights from a produciton boat:   http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/weight-breakdown.htm   It all adds up ...   This weight obsession is misguided ... yes make it light, but also robust and long-lasting.   What is interesting is the massive variance in crew weights yet performance is similar ... so weight is not that big a preformance factor IMHO ... [/QUOTE Interesting link to the MPS weights, thanks. I like the idea of controlling all-up weight. Crew weight is a two-edged sword, it slows you down if the power is constant, but allows you to develop more power. I think it's a mark of a good class where these two effects broadly cancel over a useful wind range. I think the 400 is not bad in this respect. Although the RS400 is a great boat, and a good yardstick for comparing others with, it was designed down to a price about 17 years ago. Has nothing changed since then? For all the hype, the Icon seems to go about the same speed as a 400 or Merlin

Interesting link to the MPS weights, thanks. I like the idea of controlling all-up weight.
Crew weight is a two-edged sword, it slows you down if the power is constant, but allows you to develop more power. I think it's a mark of a good class where these two effects broadly cancel over a useful wind range. I think the 400 is not bad in this respect.

Although the RS400 is a great boat, and a good yardstick for comparing others with, it was designed down to a price about 17 years ago. Has nothing changed since then? For all the hype, the Icon seems to go about the same speed as a 400 or Merlin without a kite.

One thing I really like about the 600 is that it's so light to move on the shore compared to some boats I've sailed. In a nice offshore wind it's a pleasure to sail, accelerating quickly, easy to right etc. When the wind swings round to an onshore and there's all that nasty estuary chop things change. The lack of momentum makes it incredibly hard to tack. I remember when I first sailed it in those conditions; I simply couldn't tack it. I'd build up speed, fly into the tack and the boat hit a wave (unavoidable because there's such a short wavelength) and just stopped. Sail catches, get blown back round onto original tack. Repeat 10-15 times, trying all sorts of different things, still doesn't work. If the 600 were any lighter, there'd be even less momentum, and this problem would be worse.

Originally posted by G.R.F. . Originally posted by fab100 So here is a question for you GRF: do you throw out your PC/ipod/TV/car/trousers/whatever and buy new every time a slightly updated version comes out? Perhaps you do. I'm an early adopter, bought the first iPod, iPhone, iPad, have always used macs, I skip the occasional version but generally keep as up to date as i feel is necessary to perform the various relevant and new functions, i have an iPhone 4 but not bothered with the S, but generally yes I keep up to date ish. Originally posted by fab100 But sane people don't. They wait until the old one breaks beyond economic repair, slows to a crawl from software updates (PC), granny wills them some money or they can afford a new one, many updates down the line. No, sorry your world is clearly different to mine, do you sail GP14 by any chance, that's the type of person you are describing, they are exactly the market that is all too prevalent and pandered to in dinghy world to the detriment of what could be. Originally posted by fab100 What does not happen is that as soon as Apple/Intel/BMW releases a new model, everyone is obligated to bin the old one and buy new. But this is what you are advocating. Yes, you could perhaps build a laser or RS200 shaped boat in carbon et al for half the weight and twice the price. But you would destroy these highly supported and completive classes for no tangible gain. The racing would be worse not better, as you would lose most of your people, and quite right too. For what, so the gullible could all go 7.89% faster around the course? So what? No one cares. Its about the competition not the speed. So grass roots support and momentum are what drives the market.  Using the car analogy, folk do not still drive round in Austin sevens because they are good sport. So what about a five year cycle rather than the current average thirty year cycle of change then? Originally posted by fab100 This is basic economics and will not change even if you personally gift every household in the country the £15k on the proviso they buy your wonderful new lightweight super-boat (that most of us will hate 'cos the racing will be cr@p). And repeat every 3 years thereafter, insisting they give the old one back as it too is now useless. Unlike branded clothing, the selling USP does not come from being the latest, trendy thing, but from almost the opposite, the strength of the existing network. And building a network from scratch in an already widely diverse market is a huge ask. All the cards are stacked against. This is why the industry is like it is - it has to deal with the world as it, not as you think it should be.  So as I said yesterday, get yourself a Moth. And if it does not suit your current club, get in the car and drive somewhere else where it does. But be warned, even in a Moth you will need to hike hard to be competitive with the guys who know what they are doing. Let me give you another world of basic economics, Bikes, where they spend £5-6000 a pop, frequently and own two or three, the sad fact is there are parallel worlds where people are still spending big sums on their sport activities, provided the product brings with it added value and reason to change. Take away the reason to change and you take away the desire to innovate and improve, having the fixed status quo of people like you as 'advisors' to the newcomers to the sport perpetuates the stagnation. Having everything so difficult, just because you and your peers took so long to learn, so that must be the way for everyone, also limits potential. It's not a question of cost, and talking of sane, why is it sane to spend tens of thousands on a clinker built anachronism because it's what, anti-cool? Building a £1200 carbon mast that is so spindly it snaps at the first half decent gust, those boys at our club who recently bought one must be gutted. There's plenty of money around if the need arises, what the problem is, is the route to the market for the folk who have the money, what happens to them is they get advised by people like you and so the charade persists. There is no super GT performer to sell at added value, even you fell for what we all thought was one, then got bitterly disappointed because it was a shiny version of the same ole same ole and riddled with faults that no entry level adult could cope with, even quite reasonable and capable sailors had to junk it, so, all the time that continues you'll dwindle, which is a shame, because it needn't be that way. I'm taking a total newcomer, MD of a local company, I'm going to teach him to sail and crew for me in the Alto, would I have a hope in hell of doing that in a 505? No, not a chance and even now after 8 years and I'm not exactly a newcomer to sailing, would I go near anything as complex as that, it's needlessly complex in this day and age. So you and I, we're worlds apart, you however already have what you want, it's all there, exactly as you like it and dying exactly as I predict it will unless there is an easier yet still accessible high performance route into sailboat racing that attracts the adult adventure seeker with high levels of disposable income, sorry to break that to you, but as usual like most dinghy sailors you're wrong.

I actually agree with most of what Graeme has to say about this. Okay, I don't think the V is the answer (sorry) and I don't think *ultra* light boats would help, but there is very little incentive for manufacturers to innovate under the current set up. Sailing 1960's technology might be fun in a first edition collector kind of way, but it shouldn't be the mainstay of a healthy sport. I strongly believe that for dinghy racing to prosper it needs to enable manufacturers to prosper. Cottage industry sports will always be niche.
A 20 year cycle would be a start!