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    Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:49pm
Which is what the Icon did...

Removing weight from a singlehander is arguably less important cos you've already shed 75kg. Good righting moment is where a singlehander can benefit.

I tried to buy the Aura, but got sent packing before I'd even mentioned a price. I think the fact I wanted it for parts didn't go down well!

One thing I do agree with Graeme on is the lack of innovation in the sport. And lack of adult support.   
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Jack Sparrow View Drop Down
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Posts: 2965 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.


Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Laser EPS - 63.5kg - must of been it's weight that people didn't like then.

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Is that it's all up weight?
And a Farr 37 all up is what? Oh and with the additional weight I'll have to add to sail with you? Which presumably someone will have to pay money to make correctors to add additional weight? Seriously dude you couldn't make it up it's so stupid.
I pay money to make it real light, then because y'all are so parsimonious or 'just don't care' I'll have to pay some more money to make it heavy enough to race with you.
Have you any idea how just plain stupid that sounds?


seriously... weigh your EPS and then tell me its 63.5kg. From what I remember the foam wings filled up with water and got heavier and heavier over time.

A conservative estimate on the all up weight for a 3.7 would be:

Hull (with fittings) 50kg
Mast (carbon C-tec) 5kg
Wire standing rigging 0.3kg
Boom (carbon C-Tec) 1.5kg
Board (stripped cedar) 2.5kg
Rudder (carbon) 0.5kg
Stock (carbon) 0.5
Sails 5kg

65.3kg

I'll weigh it all and get back to you.
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Posts: 586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:44pm
What about taking a proven hull shape e.g. '9er or MPS and then getting crew weight down? That's what I'm doing now... Wink It's a lot easier and takes less time... Clown  Assuming we've not the crew weight in those calulations... Shocked

Edited by Slippery Jim - 23 May 12 at 1:48pm
Pass the skiff, man!
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:39pm
I agree with Rupert's post above.
I would add that weight has to be limited or dinghies get very expensive to build or very fragile, or both.
Just where that limit should be set is a matter for debate.
In Merlins it's 98kg for the hull, centreboard and some of the string.
Many of them are carrying over 10kg of lead.
But it is a formula that works to make a class with a hotly contested circuit, several big events and healthy new boat sales.
It's racing that sells racing boats.

If you look at the graphs in Bethwaite's books, you can see that achievable weight loss would result in significant percentage speed increase. Read across the drag/speed curves for different all-up weights. Then think about the improved acceleration. This train of thought applies particularly in the lighter wind ranges, but also at speed.

If I were handicap racing or designing a boat for fun, I would be looking very, very hard at getting the weight down on a proven hull shape.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by G.R.F.

 
That was forty years ago, things have moved on apace since then, there have been all manner of composite constructions, ally honey comb, nomex honeycomb, styrofoam core, epoxy sandwich over styrofoam, abs over epoxy over styro foam, there are still 4 mtr craft that are thirty years old weigh under 18 kilos and quite capable of being run up the beach, it's just a sad fact that your/our market will never support the volume that would justify the production expense to produce what we're looking for.

Then again unless there is a culture, that demands it, why bother? All the time everyone is perfectly happy to think 40 kgs is light, then it's game on for these pathetic 'garage' construction systems to continue. 

Grumpf, I have to agree about the need to make the sport user-friendly, but that's not going to achieved by burning all the old boats and forcing people into 16k GBP/$25,000 US or AUS carbon lightweights.

The lightest dinghies around (for their size) are the Moths, the 12 Foot Skiffs and the NZ R Class. They are lighter for size than boards and extremely expensive because there is no minimum weight (apart from the 12s which are about 45kg and heavily loaded). The 12 Foot Skiff bare hull costs over $20k AUS/US, which is thousands more than the 16' 505 hull, and 505s are hardly a low tech boat for poor people. It's fantasy to say that dropping minimum weights would not make boats extremely expensive - a 20,000 US dollar bare hull is not exactly cheap for a 12 foot boat!

If the "4 mtr craft that are thirty years old weigh under 18 kilos and quite capable of being run up the beach" are boards, as I suspect they are, then they are a totally different kettle of fish. Boards are inherently smaller and more lightly loaded and that lets them work despite construction that is inferior in many ways.... that's not better construction, it's basic physics.

My longboard fleet includes two customs built by Rick Naish and Harold Iggy for Robby; the bronze-medal winning Lechner from Barcelona, and two German built Mistrals. They are top class examples of board construction, and yet not one of them could take the loads imposed by a boat's rigging. They are not better than boats!

You can't ignore the factor of size and squaring rules. Take the IMCO and its dimensions of 3720 x 630 x approx 200, 235 L and 15kg. Compare it to the Laser, 4200 x1390 x approx 320, 840l volume (very, very roughly) and 57kg.... turns out that the Laser is about only 7% heavier for its size despite being a couple of decades older, and more durable in use.

You can't compare boards to boats any more than you can compare the weight of a car to the weight of a motorbike. A Pro Stock drag bike has a similar wheelbase (counting bars) to a Formula 1 car but only weighs 40% as much - does that mean that F1 technology is crud? No, it just means that one thing is inherently skinnier and lower and therefore weighs less.

I can't find any reason to say that boats are inferior in terms of things like rig technology. The fact that you are complaining about mast bend v luff curve is, to be blunt, ridiculous, because boat sailors often spend many hours working on those factors on and off the water, whereas boardsailors just tend to buy what they are told and crank it to the recommended settings no matter what the conditions. FWIW I reckon board rigs have gone backwards in terms of user-friendliness and wind range in some ways over the decades - they are certainly very heavy compared to what they could be.

Funny thing, y'know....when I was looking up the length of drag racing motorbikes I noticed how tight the rules are - in many ways, much tighter and more restrictive than in many sailing classes. Some sailors keep complaining that sailors have restrictions against development, but I have yet to find a sport with equipment of comparable cost that has such an excellent range of restrictions, from almost unlimited classes to very tight ones. And guess which end of the scale actually gets the sailors....

 
Lots of good facts that debunk a number of GRFs opinions ... I know he won't take any notice of anything dinghy sailors tell him but perhaps there is a small chance he'll take some of the above on board ... but then again probably not ... Confused
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by ex laser

Originally posted by Rupert

Judging by the prices that are charged for dinghy sailing beach holidays, the sport of dinghy sailing isn't dying, just changing. The 1950's model of lots of small clubs scattered around doing their own thing, either handicap racing or class racing, is struggling. Personally, I like being a member of a small club, but the politics of it all wears me down occasionally.

I really can't see how that has anything to do with how heavy boats are. I also have no real idea what the solution is, and reading this thread hasn't helped one bit in finding out.

Fab100, your are really on fire today - loved the postings!


well said Clap Clap   could not agree more!

+1 we've lost members, but we've also gained them... The gains have been in the class fleets- mainly the Laser and we've have folks moving across from 49ers and 700s to join the class racing on offer.  

The net figure might still be a lose, but it would be far worse if the classes hadn't maintained something that still remains attractive at its core.  
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Judging by the prices that are charged for dinghy sailing beach holidays, the sport of dinghy sailing isn't dying, just changing. The 1950's model of lots of small clubs scattered around doing their own thing, either handicap racing or class racing, is struggling. Personally, I like being a member of a small club, but the politics of it all wears me down occasionally.

I really can't see how that has anything to do with how heavy boats are. I also have no real idea what the solution is, and reading this thread hasn't helped one bit in finding out.

Fab100, your are really on fire today - loved the postings!


well said Clap Clap   could not agree more!
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:17pm
Judging by the prices that are charged for dinghy sailing beach holidays, the sport of dinghy sailing isn't dying, just changing. The 1950's model of lots of small clubs scattered around doing their own thing, either handicap racing or class racing, is struggling. Personally, I like being a member of a small club, but the politics of it all wears me down occasionally.

I really can't see how that has anything to do with how heavy boats are. I also have no real idea what the solution is, and reading this thread hasn't helped one bit in finding out.

Fab100, your are really on fire today - loved the postings!
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:09pm
Well the one boat that i don't criticise is my pals Phantom which to me seems not a bad weight to volume ratio and he can handle it OK, two of us easily lifting it clean onto the trailer.

I know, it's virtually impossible to alter a 'class association mentality to my viewpoint' but that doesn't stop it being fun trying.

Had the Mistral Class taken my advice they'd still be the Olympic class, they didn't now they're gone.

The very first suggestion i made to the UKBSA at the time a two thousand strong class, at their AGM suggesting they permitted the use of footstraps on windsurfing boards (and the minimum weight reduced), they voted against.

It's never in the vested interest of any group to vote for change, don't even mention Turkeys and Christmas, and no of course the weight thing isn't alone in ruining the sport, but if does stop the ability of the manufacturers to innovate and in business the adage innovate or die is very true and without a solid manufacturing base, eventually we'll all be the losers.

Sure you can go on with your Solos your CVRDA, your Holt centenaries, but the mentality doesn't help.

Nor does it help that something as gorgeous as that Aura will vanish simply because the market is filled with luddites with the attitude you are all demonstrating here, you are all Turkeys and Christmas is nearer than you think.

And with that I'm now going to bunk off down the lake to give that EPS a go - lucky me, see y'all later.


Edited by G.R.F. - 23 May 12 at 1:11pm
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Posts: 586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 12:57pm
Mind boggling, what are you on GRUMPH?  - crystal meth and Ex-lax - 'cos that's a helluva load of sh*te delivered in a very short time.
 
Entering friendly chat mode
 
Fact of the matter is you ain't going to change the way people sail dinghies 'cos it's a mainly conservative sport. For anyone in the business the maxim is "don't lean out of the window too far" when it comes to any form of investment, particularly in today's economic situation. Why not leave it at that now and try a little sailing? Remember, It's time in the boat not forum time that counts...
 
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Edited by Slippery Jim - 23 May 12 at 12:59pm
Pass the skiff, man!
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