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V Twin

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hollandsd View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 1:13pm
I do agree with Graeme on this one, I would have most likely bought a Blaze with kite over the contender I am currently sailing.

If such a class were to come into existance (i.e not the 100 or D1) I would be inclined to give it a shot.

The reason I dislike the D1 is mainly the looks, with the 100 I think its not as easily driven as it should be (me being lazy)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kev M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 1:17pm
Inflating one rack would be a disaster I think.  If the boat capsizes towards the inflated rack and the force is strong enough it will still go over, it's just the centre around which the boat rotates has moved a couple of feet further away.  So it might reduce the chances but won't stop it completely.

The biggest problem I would imagine is that it would be impossible to right from turtled  when stood on the inflated side and what are your chances of spinning the boat around to face the other way so that you can stand on the non-inflated side when the sea state is sh*tty?  Much better to look at the options to stop it going turtled in the first place in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.



As a wilder idea, how about one of the racks had an inflated seat and the other didn't, that might keep it on its side, or at the very least if they were both inflated, one could have the plug pulled.

I mean seriously if everything on the control side had been working, there is no way it would have gone over in the first place. Everyone knows you don't just 'head up' from a broad reach head to wind in a breeze like that, only a retarded person with extreme narcissistic personality disorder...


Firstly Graeme, what mast are you using and is that the AltO jib?

Re. the inflated seat, coincidentally  my second suggestion after getting maximum buoyancy out of the mast was to fit some buoyancy to each rack. I then decided it would need to be on the topside. Immediately the though of armchair sailing came to mind which was one of the early criteria for the AltO before it was an AltO. Roger who sailed with me in the Wayfarer was having an increasing problem the arthritic hips, so the first prototype was an old FiveO into which I fitted a wayfarer type thwart for Roger. It was a non trapeze boat (Roger was 17 stone) and it was locally known as my asymmetric armchair Wayfarerer (about year 2002). That prototype non trapeze AltO still exists at Aldeburgh with of course the thwart seat. I was next going to add pipe insulating foam to the mainsheet hoop to give an upholstered back to the seat. Enough.

Moving on, I was then going to suggest that easy deflation was available on each bag so when fully inverted one or the other could be deflated thus allowing the boat to be more easily righted. The next logical thought was then that you perhaps only need a bag on one side, but it would be better to have comfort on both tacks!
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by oldarn

 

Firstly Graeme, what mast are you using and is that the AltO jib?


It is allegedly an RS700 mast and yes it is my original Alto jib, but without a jib track which I now recognise as essential.
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 2:10pm
....if he could just now convince 5 other folks at Draycote to sail them, then I'll buy him a pint.  LOL

....and if  you can persuade a few of them we can do you a cracking 'fleet' price ... and I'll buy the beer. 

BTW I am NOT against asymetrics in any way, but Cirrus is a small company and we have had to, up to now at least,  avoid targetting sections of the market that are well or over-served with choice already.  We also dropped the development of a (Blaze inspired but not Blaze based ) singlehander with spinnaker when we became aware of the D1 and RS 100 developments.  We do not have the marketing clout in an age of 'brand' - and would have been badly squeezed however good the boat.  It was a hard decision at the time but was basic commercial common sence and one I'm very glad we took .... but it did bring forward Icon.   The Blaze was never going to be supplied with a spinnaker anyway and regardless of its sans-spinnaker status the class continues to grow in a very encouraging manner really on the back of third party recommendations and a very keen bunch of owners ....   

Look around the various sailing clubs and locations out there - the vast majority of singlehanders still choose single-sail racing, and not necessarily because they are incapable of managing an additonal sail as some might imply.   Could we develop a fantastic 'optimised' and desirable  hiking singlehander with spinnaker - well I think so but that is not the point. 

Mike L.

PS - Greame - I have a brand new, bare Blaze hull without deck (or fault !) available in polyester (the last ever made) that would allow you to build whatever you wanted on top of it .... yours for relative peanuts if you are seriously interested.  I was keeping it to build a one-off just to make the point myself and have a bit of (non-commercial) fun .. but sadly no time to spare !

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 2:20pm
I don't know whether a track is intrinsically essential, but you certainly need some means of getting the jib 90% sheeted in on tacks with a singlehander. With ICs many of us do it by attaching the jib to the sliding seat. A track's certainly the most conventional.

As a quick and dirty fix you might want to look at making the jib "club footed" - putting a boom on the jib and tacking the jib down something approaching a quarter of the way along from the tack...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by blaze720



....and if  you can persuade a few of them we can do you a cracking 'fleet' price ... and I'll buy the beer. 


they won't listen to me Mike...  LOL

I'll speak to the some of the committee and see if we can arrange a demo day in the autumns when we know the public outcome of the carbon stick or not. (either way doesn't bother me anymore, but I'd rather arrange demo when there's clarity)  

No need to publish the fleet price, I appreciate it would be volume dependent!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by oldarn

 

Firstly Graeme, what mast are you using and is that the AltO jib?


It is allegedly an RS700 mast and yes it is my original Alto jib, but without a jib track which I now recognise as essential.


From the photo on page 87 there are upper spreaders at two battens down and the jib sheave block about one button down with I assume the kite halliard above that, so as you say plenty of holes.
You must use a forstay. Does it pass down the inside of the mast for tensioning up the rig?

Somehow I suggest you seal the mast down to the upper spreaders or about two battens down. Much below that would not contribute much buoyancy initially. I suggest you take the main halliard externally down to about 75mm above the spreaders and not to near other holes or rivet, then drill an angled hole and pass the halliard back inside the mast. Take jib halliard externally say until just below the upper spreaders. If the forestay is internal, that will have to be, but take out sheave and take off masthead fitting before spraying. Stick up to say 10mm foam on outside of mast again down to spreaders.

I'm sure this is a must before any additional action. I'm afraid I again suggest you ignore Mike L's minimum weight minimum diameter topmast. I was lost on the logic that it holds less water. It will certainly hold less air/buoyangy which is what you need initially.  

Since the AltO jib halliard sheave is near the top of the mast, I assume the mast is shorter than an AltO mast leaving less mast above the holes to seal.,ff length takes ti, o
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by oldarn

Originally posted by tickler



Can thought not be given to why it fell over in the first place?


Graeme, have you not worked out why you capsised your MPS, your RS500, your RS100 and your AltO? Most likely you decided it was because they are dinghies. Certainly with the AltO and I'm sure the V Twin alot of thought goes into this and since we know as human beings we will make mistakes however much capsizing is designed out , it will happen.  So unfortunately tickler, it will happen and the challenge is how to minimise the possibility of it happening and then when it does, how to make it recoverable by the crew on board.

The challenge in not how to prevent the capsize but how to recover from it, 'safely'

Tickler, does your dinghy capsize, and if not why not?

It capsises far more than I find comfortable, the reason? The silly old fool driving it!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by tickler


Tickler, does your dinghy capsize, and if not why not?

It capsises far more than I find comfortable, the reason? The silly old fool driving it!
[/QUOTE]
I know the feeling!
What did the AltO design do to minimise capsizing while being a fast exciting boat across the wind range, inland and at sea.
1  Pick the most well mannered and foregiving hull shape, i.e. based on the nearly 60 year old John Westell's Five O Five design. This minimises gybing capsizes
2 Use self tacking jib
3 Lifting centreboard and rudder blade.
4 Incorporate an asymmetric kite
5 Minimum boom length.
6 Mainsheet off hoop as standard, not transom, though allowed.
7 Minimum boom height limited by mainsheet hoop height.
8 Minimum internal clutter
9 Balanced rig in all conditions.
10 Manageable sail plan
11Optimum rudder design by Phil Milanes.
12 sit in not on.

To minimise turning turtle
1i single bottomed floor.
2 correctly sized side tanks.

 Acceptable no of capsises per year, about 4.



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