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V Twin

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olly_love View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote olly_love Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: V Twin
    Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 11:15am
the question noone has asked, is the double rocker thing actually work?
as its the first propper time it went out in breeze or would i have been better with a standard hull
TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala


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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 11:28am
Oh dear Greame

I knew I'd be putting my hand in the fire (!) but I'm only saying it the way I see it (just as you occasionally do).  Is it 'messanger shooting season' so soon  ? ... I'm only saying what many out there think while they egg you on even further with a mixture of encouragement and 'knocking' possibly to amuse the forum.  Of course you don't have to use a Blaze hull (God knows where we'd end up there .... and in most ways I'd rather not see you write a sequel of 'whats wrong with the Blaze by GRF' ;-). 

What got me to comment now after being broadly supportive in the past is the inversion bit ....  However well it turns out performance wise in the end if recovering from inversion is more than tough its curtains for the concept even as a one-off - who wants to worry about recovery every time you get a decent breeze ? - there are classes available that can do that for you already.  (btw we'd had sealed masts on the Blaze almost since the beginning with the halyard returning down the track ... for all the good reasons you know already)  But if you have a spinnaker and/or jib with internal halyards or even a main halyard within the tube sealing effectively will not be easy - all I could suggest if you do persist is trying a small diameter carbon mast that would be lighter but more importantly would have much reduced internal volume available to flood.   A few 'balls' might help a bit but not that much.... 

But do think about grabbing any (OK then not a Blaze) hull where all that  expensive basic proving stuff has been done already, modify it a bit if you must and concentrate on the rig / foils / controls.  The problem with a few dinghy sailors is they are 'hull obsessed' and forget to give the rig at least as much focus, they just love their hulls to bits - as another ex-boarder you know this stuff is at least partly right and it would play to your strengths in my opinion.   There really are some great and suitable hulls already that are let down by heavy, draggy rigs   ... but could be transformed with right rig.

Only my opinion Greame ....

Mike L.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 11:28am
Originally posted by tickler



Can thought not be given to why it fell over in the first place?


Graeme, have you not worked out why you capsised your MPS, your RS500, your RS100 and your AltO? Most likely you decided it was because they are dinghies. Certainly with the AltO and I'm sure the V Twin alot of thought goes into this and since we know as human beings we will make mistakes however much capsizing is designed out , it will happen.  So unfortunately tickler, it will happen and the challenge is how to minimise the possibility of it happening and then when it does, how to make it recoverable by the crew on board.

The challenge in not how to prevent the capsize but how to recover from it, 'safely'

Tickler, does your dinghy capsize, and if not why not?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 11:40am
Mike- if you do decide to play with kites on a single hander again, I'd definitely recommend an external kite halyard irrespective of the sealed mast advantages.  

There are just times when it will 'all go wrong' and being capsized with a kite up on a singlehander is a 'participation-questioning' situation for even the most ardent of singlehanded kite boats.  

Having access to the halyard externally is safest place it can be... even if that means cutting it out.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 11:58am
Putting a sealed mast with external halyards on the V3000 made it 99% non-inverting (there are always weird circs).  I achieved a similar effect - at least for the initial couple of minutes after capsizing (usually enough) on an unsealed Laser 3k mast by sticking small bits of the waxy-polytheney closed-cell packing foam into all the holes and taping over them - quick and easy.

That said, the L3k was not a bad inverter in the first place - only a small improvement was needed.  I suspect that a sealed mast would hardly noticeably benefit a determined inverter like a Laser 2000 or the V-Twin.  

A cat-style righting pole e.g. http://www.catsailor.com/power_righter.html 
normally stowed in the tunnel sounds a sensible idea to me.  Stand on the rack to get the boat on its side, swing out the pole and then mind your head on the hull as the boat comes upright.

The real answer is to lower the floor to the minimum you need to self-drain, have small bow and stern tanks and no side tanks, but that's a real cut-about for you and a solution that seems to elude all current manufacturers...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 12:40pm
Well in answer to how it went over in the first place as i recall, I kept losing the mainsheet, first by not having a knot in it, then the knot I did tie to the end of the jib sheet (bear in mind they were both going through the same block, which in itself turned out not to be the great idea i at first thought it was).

So I'd just started to hoist the kite when I noticed they'd come undone, the main sheet was perilously close to disappearing once more through the sheeting block, and the sail was rubbing the spreaders(what I'd failed to spot was the jib was cleated fairly well for the first time) Now, I'd also become fairly blasé about frigging about, it is so stable, you do need to be a total idiot to put it over and up until what happened next, hadn't even considered it a remote possibility.
So I came back from being dead downwind at half hoist to head to wind to try and get back in touch with the boom, had to go amidships to grab it, the jib was still sheeted hard in, it slowly started to rear up, I tried to get back up on a rack as i had once before doing this, which is enough to stop it, slipped back down and she came over. There's a pic somewhere, with me standing on the mast, which assisted the turtling effect and given it was the first time it had gone over in what two months of fiddling and I was far enough out to sea for it not to be a problem,  I was as relaxed about it as anyone could be who doesn't exactly relish going over anyway and it did have to be done at some point.

Now in the greater scheme of things it was nowhere near the shock of finding a boat I'd paid good money for from an outfit that has been supplying boats for aeons, was also next to impossible to right from a turtle and get back into in similar conditions, without the aid of the rescue boat, mention no names here but we all know which it is and it had a greater propensity for chucking it's driver out even on relatively flat water I noticed and better men than I.

So, 'Teflon Balls' my I do like the sound of that.. Powered by Teflon Balls, yep sounds just the job.

As a wilder idea, how about one of the racks had an inflated seat and the other didn't, that might keep it on its side, or at the very least if they were both inflated, one could have the plug pulled.

I mean seriously if everything on the control side had been working, there is no way it would have gone over in the first place. Everyone knows you don't just 'head up' from a broad reach head to wind in a breeze like that, only a retarded person with extreme narcissistic personality disorder...


Edited by G.R.F. - 24 Apr 12 at 12:44pm
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by blaze720

 I'd rather not see you write a sequel of 'whats wrong with the Blaze by GRF' ;-). 


I don't recall being anything but complementary about the Blaze mike and if you do have a 'spare hull' knocking about then let me know, they tell me, again contrary to my prejudiced previous opinion, that it's a great lake boat down at the Redoubt which is what I'm currently looking for, and we know its a good sea boat already.
The thing about opinions, they do alter with experience, well some of ours do.

However I still remain minded that the best single hander there never was, is a Blaze with Kite, even if it were only a small one..


Edited by G.R.F. - 24 Apr 12 at 12:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

 
However I still remain minded that the best single hander there never was, is a Blaze with Kite, even if it were only a small one..

but in doing so, would alienate one of the main attractions about the boat- decent one design racing and a growing fleet.  

as you say, opinions change with experience... mine certainly has on this point.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by rogue

 
but in doing so, would alienate one of the main attractions about the boat- decent one design racing and a growing fleet.  

How so? Why need it be any different than two rigs on an Rs100?

Blaze and Blaze K, race it mono or race it with the kite option if local conditions permit. At the Nationals, the size of which would have doubled had it been done prior to the D1 and Rs100, you have two prizes - simples.

Exisiting owners get the option to upgrade in the same way the Vortex lot must have done and no doubt other class over the years must have acted and if local places like the lake by the M4 who's name temporarily escapes me, Burberry, whatever, they simply ban the kite if they don't want it.

Instead they ask the encumbants who say no, thereby denying hundreds who might have joined them (and probably thrashed them whilst showing them how to dance proper,  Wink)




Edited by G.R.F. - 24 Apr 12 at 1:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 12 at 1:13pm
fair points, but this is sailing... it's backwards and all that would have happened in a new load of joiners would join in with their 'new class', the incumbents would slowly swell the Phantom ranks (the generous PY at the time making the decision even easier), us newbies would then have found actually asymmetrics on RTC courses suck... and we would be left with nothing but two factions equally struggling for numbers, with the probability of facing the same fate as the Vortex i.e. dead and no longer in production.

As it is now, Mike's ridden the wave of enthusiasm for singlehanded kited hikers and come out the other side with a handful of ex RS100 sailors in his class... long game, well played... if he could just now convince 5 other folks at Draycote to sail them, then I'll buy him a pint.  LOL

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