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V Twin

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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Apr 12 at 9:56am
There once was a man from Nantucket...
Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"
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rogue View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 12 at 10:06am
I don't think there's any shifting goal posts John- the intention was always for this beast, helmed by Graeme to be faster around a course in a fresh breeze than ghosting himself in a Musto Skiff.  (Admitting defeat on that one seems to have hurt his ego very badly)  I don't think that's too much of a challenge- I reckon I was faster around the course in my RS100 than I would have been in my MPS in anything over a F3- simply down to being able to make the corners.

Graeme is begrudingly acknowledging his own greater understanding of sailboats now compared to when he commissioned this toy- the simple fact that every boat has a compromise isn't easily grasped, especially when you're spending the annual minimum wage on something that is supposed to be for fun.  In the case of this design, its compromise is light winds, something we could have all told just by looking at the WSA and knowing there's no way he'd get the power to unstick it.  So maybe he's admitting that the 'all things to all people on all sea conditions in a massive wind range' was a tad ambitious.  But it's also worth understanding his definition of light wind.  As a windsurfer he'd probably say light wind is a F3, anything below is simply 'non sailing' cycling wind.  Conversely in dinghydom once it's over F4 then even the big boys in their Phantoms retire to the bar rather than go sailing at their Nationals.  

I personally think he could have achieved the same outcome with a production dinghy- the D-One on wide wings perhaps?  I also think that if the shore-dump and beach sailing is so much of an issue you can't use daggerboards, then the real answer would be get a nicer beach cat- Nacra 500 maybe, even the Topper Topaz 14, it's certainly very versatile, maintenance free and could be raced singlehanded as well as taking out the Daughters of Darkness when they were between salon appointments...


It isn't a 'crap boat'- is anyone actually still in business making genuinely 'crap' boats anymore? 

If you can your head around owning 1) a Cat 2) a Rotomould and 3) a Topper then it could be a really good option for a sailor in a similar predicament.  Someone wanting speed as well as easy handling.

Sometimes innovation, which he seems to covert so much, is about changing perceptions, rather than developing new technologies.  But that takes a really unique, forward thinking mindset- something I know I haven't got as when presented with a similar dilemma I couldn't even get over the first hurdle and buy a cat!!!    


 


Edited by rogue - 04 Apr 12 at 10:09am

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 12 at 10:20am
Originally posted by johnreekie1980

The man who tries and tries again in an arena where the outcome is inevitable and has been know prior to the event is just a fool. The fool who then tells everyone else that they are wrong throughout the endeavour whilst continuing to fail is generally not received as a hero or valiant.
+1
 
 
Originally posted by rogue

I don't think there's any shifting goal posts John- the intention was always for this beast, helmed by Graeme to be faster around a course in a fresh breeze than ghosting himself in a Musto Skiff.  (Admitting defeat on that one seems to have hurt his ego very badly)
 
If you don't have the skill to keep a boat up the right way anything would have been faster; you are basically targeting to be faster than zero ... not much of a brief to overcome.
 
Anyway seems to me that the coal barge is going to be a bit of a handful for a 60kg person when it cuts up rough and will be even more of a challenge to right from capsize ...
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 12 at 11:44am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by Jimbob

Whatever you do try to ensure it performs very well in light winds otherwise it's dead in the water. Light winds were/are the death knell for Vortex/smallCat types of boat. And let's have a big baggy thing up front.

Yes, very much the biggest challenge, we're tryin to do it with a three stage rocker so in the very light stuff we can lift the stern and or rock it over to one side.

Wetted surface Bow Up (which will reduce with dynamic lift as the boat planes)

Wetted surface Bow down, stern lifted.

This with assumed 150 kilos on board which is unlikely.

These two show it from another angle.



It is an issue and we're not done with it yet.

Big baggything up front goes without saying, as might be a self tacking jib on its own boom a la model yacht.

Just a reminder... I knew all along it wasn't going to be going anywhere in a drifter, which Sundays race turned out to be, by the time I'd free'd off the kite that got jammed, the fleet were pretty much round the first boy and gone (it was a reaching start), the one time during the race there was any breeze that could be described as unidirectional and I happened to be on the same leg as the leading contender (who at the time had a considerable lead but was overwhelmed when he too sailed into a hole by the back markers that came in from the sea on a 180 degree shift, the twin matched the contender for upwind speed, once the new untrialled jib was fully sheeted (manually).

You can't call anything from this one outing, if it turns out to be a total rfwot I'll happily admit it, but so far yes in light sub 5 mph it doesn't go, but we always knew that. There is an answer, it would be to increase the volume and simply round those sponsons. If this were a board that's what we'd do, go back and re shape it, but first I need to know the top end capability of it as a planing hull.

Now, I didn't have to share any of this, it is a fecking experiment after all and if it works you can be sure other folk will be taking the good bits and running with them and y'all will benefit long term, that's the way life goes, the first off is never right, but someone has to start the ball rolling.

What i badly need to know is how well it goes in a sailing breeze and I don't have the benefit of a piece of local water with access via a slip in order to go and test it day in day out, so it takes a lot longer than it might, but then every outing is fun, even the bad ones and what else would I be doing?


Edited by G.R.F. - 04 Apr 12 at 12:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 12 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

 What i badly need to know is how well it goes in a sailing breeze.

Fingers crossed for you then that Saturday am, Sunday and Monday forecasts all hold up so that you get the chance to get her really smokin'. I am actually quite excited by all this and appreciate the open way in which you are approaching things.

As a matter of interest Graeme, when the breeze is off, does sitting to leeward, on a rack, give you enough leverage to pull one hull out of the water. I apologise if I've missed you commenting on this before, but it is after all what cat and scow sailors do to reduce that wetted area, as has rightly been identified above. 


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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 12 at 12:21pm
Yes if you want to risk it and it is bloody scary, you can sit on the wrong side and again depending on the strength of the airflow, you could lift the windward side, I haven't had the nuts to try that yet and the racks are not totally that secure they could just fall off, something I've been busy this week trying to rectify.

You have still got to remember I'm not a natural boat single handler with the experience you lot have, if you'd seen what happened when Neal Gibson got on it and got a puff, somebody with those years of I14 and all sorts of other sailing expeience, it was just 100% another league he was the one that spiked my GPS tracks at 11 mph in 7-8 mph wind.


Edited by G.R.F. - 04 Apr 12 at 12:29pm
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 12 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Yes if you want to risk it and it is bloody scary, you can sit on the wrong side and again depending on the strength of the airflow, you could lift the windward side, I haven't had the nuts to try that yet and the racks are not totally that secure they could just fall off, something I've been busy this week trying to rectify.

Yup, that rack-locking defo needs doing, then take the brave pills and experiment. We are only talking about doing this in very little breeze after all, but easy for me to say -  I've got no knowledge of what sort of zephyr would have you scrabbling frantically to the windward side. But if/when it does tip you out, keep hold of the mainsheet but let go of the tiller-ext!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 12 at 12:41pm
Doesn't have to be leeward heel.  I recall seeing the top scow Moths sailing downwind in light airs heeling way over to windward till the windward rack was just clear of the water.  Tried it myself  later when I got a chance to sail one and experienced a cat-style pitchpole in a F2  -you have to be careful not to sit too far forward, tho' the V-Twin has so much buoyancy up front it's unlikely to be a problem.

Where I suspect you might have a problem is the tunnel making the transition to the heeled position too abrupt and unpredictable.  That's why people don't seem to be able to heel a Vortex onto one hull in the light, advantageous as it might be. With a flat-bottomed scow it was very progressive.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 12 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Doesn't have to be leeward heel.  

I started writing about windward heel, then deleted it, on the basis that until there is enough to hold the sails in the right place and shape, the medicine will cause more harm than the disease. But I agree, beyond that point, I suspect ww heel needs to be part of the toolkit.

Then there is the option of sitting so far forward that the rocker pulls the stern sections out of the oggin. Easier with a crew - not so easy to tack or gybe whilst remaining on the foredeck when single-handed. And yes, as a laser sailor, I know all about how to (illegally) propel and steer while standing in front of the mast
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 12 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

  if it turns out to be a total rfwot I'll happily admit it, but so far yes in light sub 5 mph it doesn't go, but we always knew that. 

It's hard to admit when you get it wrong, but FWIW you're a good way off calling it a flop yet- especially now you've seemingly modified some of your expectations, or at least, better qualified them to the 'Musto girlies'.  

However, if you do find it completely stinks for not meeting your initial goals, costs a fortune on depreciation when you finally offload it and above all,  it proves to be totally unseaworthy when you go to right it, launch it and handle it ashore on your own, just remember you're in fine company!   LOL

Originally posted by G.R.F.

 Now, I didn't have to share any of this, it is a fecking experiment after all 

but where would the fun have been if you hadn't???


Edited by rogue - 04 Apr 12 at 1:55pm

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