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ifoxwell View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Oct 11 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by oldarn

Originally posted by ifoxwell


I know that in the market as a whole these are still small numbers and there have undoubtedly been loads of great designs over the last 30 years that are stilling selling well..
Ian


Ian, I meant, which of the many great design of the last 30 years, excluding the last five, are still selling well? The 5K, 4K, Boss, ISO, Buzz, 600, Vortex, and more. Other than the Vortex, boats you might call skiffs, depending on 'what is a skiff?

In that comment I was really using the term great designs in a far looser context.... i.e. those boats that are well regarded, with a thriving class and new boats still being sold.

Your wouldn't necessarily call boats like the Fireball, Merlin or Scorpion great designs but years of development have resulted in great sailing boats. Because of the SMOD format kinda taking over new  mainstream boat designs these classes dont have teh chance to be developed in the same way so it falls on the designer to get it right up front.

Now I'm not suggesting that Paul Handley is producing great designs in the Jim C sense of the word but he does seem to be producing designs straight off the board that tick a lot of peoples box's in a way that other designers of the last 5 years don't seem able to.

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Dougal View Drop Down
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Posts: 556 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 11 at 1:54pm
Has the design of the Fireball changed?  Modern materials have certainly improved it, but I wasn't aware od the actaul hull dimensions changing?
 
 
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Posts: 628 		Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 11 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Dougal

Has the design of the Fireball changed?  Modern materials have certainly improved it, but I wasn't aware od the actaul hull dimensions changing?
 


Like many of the home-builds of that time, there were ( are ? ) large tolerances so there could be considerable shape variations that all measure. I expect now the boats are almost identical and at the 'optimum' shape.

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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 11 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Dougal

Has the design of the Fireball changed?  Modern materials have certainly improved it, but I wasn't aware od the actaul hull dimensions changing?
 
 
The hull design has been tweaked, but that doesn't affect whether the design is great or not. What might are the addition of trapeze and spinnaker, making the boat rather more powerful and interesting than before to many. As a great boat, rather than a great design, it has benifited, as have many designs, from technological advances in masts, sails, fittings and hull materials, which have allowed the boat to become even nicer to sail.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 11 at 10:23pm
Begs the question - how do you judge how good a crewing is? It can just be on sales because thatvwould discriminate against high end, expensive designs. And it can't just be about using the latest and greatest technology.

In my opinion 'goodness' of design relates to how well the design meets it's brief, in other words how well it fulfills it's intended function regardless of whether that function is mainstream or niche. The Laser 2000 scores pretty well in my book.
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Begs the question - how do you judge how good a crewing is? It can just be on sales because thatvwould discriminate against high end, expensive designs. And it can't just be about using the latest and greatest technology.

In my opinion 'goodness' of design relates to how well the design meets it's brief, in other words how well it fulfills it's intended function regardless of whether that function is mainstream or niche. The Laser 2000 scores pretty well in my book.


+1 for Laser 2000, I'd also add Wayfarer, Shrimper, XOD, Cant-Tales Merlin Rockets, Topper, Optimist and Mirror for good measure
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ifoxwell View Drop Down
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Posts: 669 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ifoxwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 1:29pm
The trouble with the 2000 is its a bugger when it falls over... especially for inexperienced crews... arguably a large slice of the target audience.

Its a nice boat but in this key respect far to flawed for me to want to call it great

But i'm with you on the Mirror front. Times have moved on and as a design its not as relevant now, but in its day it did exactly want the designer, and his target customer wanted it to.

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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 1:35pm
mast head float - yeah I know they don't look "all that" but for beginners I'd recommend them every time... wouldn't send someone out into a skate park first time without some elbow & knee pads and a helmet would you?

Edited by getafix - 12 Oct 11 at 1:35pm
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ifoxwell View Drop Down
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Posts: 669 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ifoxwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 1:48pm
I agree however I dont think any boat design that relies on extras hanging off the top of the mast to make them safe, good!

Plus that's only half the story. So ok now the boat doesn't invert so quickly.... but it floats so high in the water when on its side that our clubs average 2000 sailor cant touch the board let alone climb onto it!

It is a real shame because they are nice boats in most other respects.

 
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 2:11pm
Many modern designs suffer from this - it is the one thing I don't like about the Feva, really.
 
On the other hand, my old wooden firefly floats nice and low, and doesn't turtle easily, but comes up so full of water 2 big buckets and panic are needed to empty it before swamping again.
 
I'm guessing the middle ground is good!
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