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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rules at Windward Mark - Video
    Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 1:38am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

If this went to protest, and the evidence was that PL called for room to tack when approaching the obstruction
ooh! no need to shout.
 
I think everyone who has contributed to the thread agrees with that.
 
I do however believe that Rainmaker was correct, if perhaps overly 'assertive' up until the 16 second mark on the rear facing camera (4 second syncronisation with forward camera @ 12 seconds).
The only dubious shout was 2 seconds later when the starboard boat was then on a closing course. Did that last shout dissuade PL from calling for room to tack at that point? They only had to make that obligatory counter call, even if they didn't think Rainmaker would yield...
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 1:59am
Originally posted by Andymac

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

If this went to protest, and the evidence was that PL called for room to tack when approaching the obstruction
ooh! no need to shout.
 
I think everyone who has contributed to the thread agrees with that.
 
I do however believe that Rainmaker was correct, if perhaps overly 'assertive' up until the 16 second mark on the rear facing camera (4 second syncronisation with forward camera @ 12 seconds).
The only dubious shout was 2 seconds later when the starboard boat was then on a closing course. Did that last shout dissuade PL from calling for room to tack at that point? They only had to make that obligatory counter call, even if they didn't think Rainmaker would yield...
Relax Andy, Ed was just pointing out to me that he had made his assumption (which you and I disagree with) quite clear in his analysis.
 
 


Edited by Brass - 06 Jul 11 at 2:29am
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 3:57am
That's OK, It was only tongue in cheek...
 
 
 
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 10:08am
I made no assumption. I said "if". Had I assumed that PL called for room, I would have said "I assume PL called for room to tack". Supposition =/= assumption. 

As always with these things, we're missing the story from the other boat. 

AISI, there are three possibilities. 

1) PL called for rooom to tack. PW's response was "you can't tack". Chuck PW - 20. 

2) PL always wanted to duck, and PW's screaming made no differrence. No harm, no foul. Don't believe  this is the case, though, as it was a very late duck. 

3) PL didn't call for room to tack because they were being shouted at by PW. 

Rule 2: 2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat’s series score.


From that: "Bullying, intimidating, or discriminatory behaviour against another competitor" comes amongst the "types of alleged behaviour that may lead to action under rule 69, and the appropriate outcome if the allegation is proven"

To my mind, the way that PW's tactician was screaming may well be considered as intimidating. 

And before people start saying "69 is a very big gun", well, as was pointed out by chump at an event I was umpiring at earlier this year, yes 69 CAN be a very big gun, but it doesn't have to be. It's the only rule whereby the PC can also just say "That was wrong. Don't do it again" - with no further sanction. 

Also, I don't see how screaming at other boats can be considered to be "compet(ing) in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play". 

Depends on the story from PL, but 2 and maybe 69 might be considered, and if so, DNE PW. 

Under all scenarios:
S broke no rule. Complied with 13, complied with 15, complied with 16.1 (AFAICS, didn't alter course after her tack). 
PL broke no rule - complied with 10 wrt S, complied with 14.
PW might have broken a rule.  PW is the only boat that might be chucked. 



Edited by Presuming Ed - 06 Jul 11 at 7:50pm
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Andymac

The tactician on Rainmaker had a less obscured view than we do of the boats to leeward and could probably sight the 'starboard' boat in his peripheral vision, long before the 8 seconds mark.  The 'starboard' boat didn't actually complete the tack onto starboard to become ROW boat until the 12 second mark on the forward facing camera. You are not expected to anticipate what another boat will do.

PL was able to sail on for 10 seconds or so after S completed her tack before she bore away for the duck. PL didn't have to manoeuvre promptly after S completed her tack and acquired RoW - she waited a bit before the duck. 

S gave PL plenty of "space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way." 

S didn't break 15. 



Edited by Presuming Ed - 06 Jul 11 at 10:34am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 10:35am
PE's three alternatives seem right on the money to me, although I haven't bothered to look at the video, so can't comment on the details. Much shouting at other competitors telling them what they should be doing does't seem to me to be the sort of thing that should be encouraged though... I think if there were a hearing option 3 would be an interesting one to talk through with the sailors on PL.
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Posts: 409 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian29937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 11:24am

There is so much we don't know about the situation which would impact our interpretation. e.g.

 
Did PL request water to tack before the footage started and was PW just responding?
What was PL saying in response to PW's call?
 
Did PL request water to tack for the starboard tacker obstruction?
 
Boat to boat communication is always difficult and usually requires you to shout, sometimes repetitively to be heard.  When you consider the wind noise on the forward facing video, was he just trying to be heard? 
 
Does PL have a bad reputation for not adhering to the rules and causing damage, I think all of us might be nervous if sailing near them and make our point more forcibly than normal..
 
Jury is out for me folks....
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 12:08pm
Having just had another look at the mast cam, I need to revise my wording - "screaming" is the wrong word. The tactician is being forthright and forceful. Hectoring? And still might be considered intimidating, though. And still very wrong wrt the right to room to tack at an obstruction. 

I think their attitude to the rules & rules knowledge is shown in this one..."Helm's down"....So? You can't be breaking a rule because you've decided to tack? The waving hands in the air reminds me of the period when the All Blacks used to all stand around offside, getting in the way, but waving their hands up. "Wot me gov? In the way? Can't be - I'me waving my hands" 
(Not that I'm suggesting that they're breaking a rule in this one). 

 

"Helm's down". Is this the new "Fly the cloth"?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3361409791764024589


Edited by Presuming Ed - 06 Jul 11 at 3:46pm
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 3:15pm
The thing that really amuses me is that the only reason they can tack is because there is no such thing as water at the windward mark, if there was then they wouldnt be able to tack provided the boats are overlapped anyway...  Bunch of muppets! Shame he never seems to get that 100kg frame of his off the centreline, then they would probably be ahead of those boats after a long beat!

Rant over again, well for today anyway LOL
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed


AISI, there are three possibilities. 

1) PL called for rooom to tack. PW's response was "you can't tack". Chuck PW - 20. 

2) PL always wanted to duck, and PW's screaming made no differrence. No harm, no foul. Don't believe  this is the case, though, as it was a very late duck. 

3) PL didn't call for room to tack because they were being shouted at by PW. 

Under all scenarios:
S broke no rule. Complied with 13, complied with 15, complied with 16.1 (AFAICS, didn't alter course after her tack). 
PL broke no rule - complied with 10 wrt S, complied with 14.
PW might have broken a rule.  PW is the only boat that might be chucked. 

 Totally Agree
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