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furtive View Drop Down
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Posts: 188 		Post Options Post Options   Quote furtive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rules at Windward Mark - Video
    Posted: 05 Jul 11 at 5:05pm
Just got round to watching the clips, and irrespective of whether he's right or not (as discussed above the port leeward boat can call for water to tack to avoid the obstruction (starboard boat) if on a collision course), being quite such an obnoxious little sh*t is not a great way to make friends on the race course. I suspect that that boat finds themselves being tacked on quite a lot, and rarely gets waved across on close crosses...
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 11 at 9:42pm
Interesting, I think it would have been worth a protest, after all these are not lasers and carry some serious damage potential... I wonder if the leeward boat managed a sharp tack on the stern of the starboard boat  they could shut out the windward port boat and still keep their position.

Whatever the on the water situation - not a good advert for their business and certainly not a 'how to do the windward mark'
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 11 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by Garry

Interesting, I think it would have been worth a protest, after all these are not lasers and carry some serious damage potential... I wonder if the leeward boat managed a sharp tack on the stern of the starboard boat  they could shut out the windward port boat and still keep their position.
 
Exactly what rule do you think was broken?
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 11 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Garry

Interesting, I think it would have been worth a protest, after all these are not lasers and carry some serious damage potential... I wonder if the leeward boat managed a sharp tack on the stern of the starboard boat  they could shut out the windward port boat and still keep their position.
 
Exactly what rule do you think was broken?
 
+1
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 11 at 11:39pm
1) Judging distances on video is notoriously difficult. The judge manual goes into some detail about being aware of the shortcomings of video evidence. This is apposite. http://www.unrulyracing.com/2011/06/video-evidence.html

2) We first see the starboard boat at 8 seconds into the forward facing film. PL ducks at 18 seconds in. 
Assuming 10 metre boats at 5 knots, a boat length takes 4 seconds. At 6 knots, it's 3.2 seconds. 10 seconds is therefore about 2  1/2 to 3 boat lengths. Assuming they tack through 90, the boats are about 3 1/2 to 4 ish boat lengths apart at 8 seconds into the film - when we first see S. 

3) 4ish boat lenghts and about 10 seconds away from an obstruction (S) certainly counts as "approaching" in my book, especially in big (well, bigger than dinghy-sized) boats. Especially as you have to allow time for PW to respond to your hail. 

4)
 20.1 Hailing and Responding
When approaching an obstruction, a boat sailing close-hauled or above may hail for room to tack and avoid another boat on the same tack. After a boat hails,
(a) she shall give the hailed boat time to respond;
(b) the hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her; and
(c) when the hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.

Approaching an obstruction, if the leeward boats calls for room to tack - especilly if PL is calling for room to tack at about the 8 second mark in the film, there are only two legal responses. Either W tacks immediately, or calls "You tack". Nothing else is mentioned in the rules - especially screaming "you can't tack". 

The rules don't call call for specific wording to use when calling for room to tack. Here in the UK, calling for "water" is generally understood by most racing sailors. Unlike the protest situation, where if you don't use the word "protest", it gets chucked by the PC. 

(If PL had always wanted to duck, and done so, then PW could have asked for room between S and PL - 19.2). 

If this went to protest, and the evidence was that PL called for room to tack when approaching the obstruction (S), and PW's response was screaming "you can't tack", then it's 2 seconds thinking time for the PC before DSQ-ing PW. 

Assuming that the moment the second film stops is when PW rounds the mark, then: 18 doesn't apply between S and the two boats on P - neither have right to mark room from S. If S has to sail above close hauled to avoid PW after PW's tack, then PW has broken 18.3.a

18 does apply between the two boats on P - not that it matters as PL ducks S while PW tacks. 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 05 Jul 11 at 11:42pm
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 12:05am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

1) Judging distances on video is notoriously difficult. The judge manual goes into some detail about being aware of the shortcomings of video evidence. This is apposite. http://www.unrulyracing.com/2011/06/video-evidence.html

2) We first see the starboard boat at 8 seconds into the forward facing film. PL ducks at 18 seconds in. 
Assuming 10 metre boats at 5 knots, a boat length takes 4 seconds. At 6 knots, it's 3.2 seconds. 10 seconds is therefore about 2  1/2 to 3 boat lengths. Assuming they tack through 90, the boats are about 3 1/2 to 4 ish boat lengths apart at 8 seconds into the film - when we first see S. 

3) 4ish boat lenghts and about 10 seconds away from an obstruction (S) certainly counts as "approaching" in my book, especially in big (well, bigger than dinghy-sized) boats. Especially as you have to allow time for PW to respond to your hail. 

4)
 20.1 Hailing and Responding
When approaching an obstruction, a boat sailing close-hauled or above may hail for room to tack and avoid another boat on the same tack. After a boat hails,
(a) she shall give the hailed boat time to respond;
(b) the hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her; and
(c) when the hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.

Approaching an obstruction, if the leeward boats calls for room to tack - especilly if PL is calling for room to tack at about the 8 second mark in the film, there are only two legal responses. Either W tacks immediately, or calls "You tack". Nothing else is mentioned in the rules - especially screaming "you can't tack". 

The rules don't call call for specific wording to use when calling for room to tack. Here in the UK, calling for "water" is generally understood by most racing sailors. Unlike the protest situation, where if you don't use the word "protest", it gets chucked by the PC. 

(If PL had always wanted to duck, and done so, then PW could have asked for room between S and PL - 19.2). 

If this went to protest, and the evidence was that PL called for room to tack when approaching the obstruction (S), and PW's response was screaming "you can't tack", then it's 2 seconds thinking time for the PC before DSQ-ing PW. 

Assuming that the moment the second film stops is when PW rounds the mark, then: 18 doesn't apply between S and the two boats on P - neither have right to mark room from S. If S has to sail above close hauled to avoid PW after PW's tack, then PW has broken 18.3.a

18 does apply between the two boats on P - not that it matters as PL ducks S while PW tacks. 
 
You are assuming that PL has hailed for room to tack.  If that was the case then I agree that PW is gone for all money.
 
However I don't agree with your assumption.  There is no evidence in the videos that PL has hailed at any stage.
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 12:26am
If this went to protest, and the evidence was that PL called for room to tack when approaching the obstruction
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 12:29am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

If this went to protest, and the evidence was that PL called for room to tack when approaching the obstruction
OK.  Thanks.
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 1:04am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

1) Judging distances on video is notoriously difficult. The judge manual goes into some detail about being aware of the shortcomings of video evidence. This is apposite. http://www.unrulyracing.com/2011/06/video-evidence.html
I did like that, makes the point well. The accompanying discussion was only dissappointing because it dried up!
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 11 at 1:17am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed


2) We first see the starboard boat at 8 seconds into the forward facing film.  
 
The tactician on Rainmaker had a less obscured view than we do of the boats to leeward and could probably sight the 'starboard' boat in his peripheral vision, long before the 8 seconds mark.  The 'starboard' boat didn't actually complete the tack onto starboard to become ROW boat until the 12 second mark on the forward facing camera. You are not expected to anticipate what another boat will do.


Edited by Andymac - 06 Jul 11 at 1:21am
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