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Laser Start?

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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser Start?
    Posted: 17 May 11 at 10:48am

Finish A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in

normal position, crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark, either for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 44.2 or, after correcting an error made at the finishing line, under rule 28.1.

According to that definition, on many club courses, a boat would 'finish' before sailing the second lap. Has ISAF become completely divorced from club sailing around the cans?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 6:11am
... but rather than being DNF, wouldn't they be DSQ for breaching RRS 28 (assuming they didn't correct ther error)?


Correct. If you read the definition of "finish" in RRS there is no mention of whether or not the correct course has been sailed. "Finishing" is basically some part of the boat crossing the finish line in the correct direction. Sailing the wrong course is not DNF, it is DSQ under RRS 28 ("sailing the course").

I had this come up when I was Club RO last year. A sailor complained (to me) that another boat missed a mark, which I must surely have seen (I didn't) and I should therefore disqualify them (which was not my role).  The sailor who missed the mark later RTD.


Edited by blueboy - 17 May 11 at 6:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 7:24pm
Race Officers cannot disqualify a boat - they can only give the penalties laid out in Rule A5, which are limited to incidents at the start or finish line.

If it is alleged that a boat has  not sailed the correct course then a hearing is required (see rule 28.1).

If the Race Committee does disqualify a boat incorrectly then the boat is entitled to redress because of the incorrect action of the committee. The redress hearing will only be deciding if the RC's action was correct. The competitor should be reinstated. If the RC then protests they would have to explain why the protest is outside the time limit. "Because we don't know the rules" should not be an adequate excuse.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 5:36pm
Wouldn't there have to be a protest for DSQ, whereas a boat not completing the course is DNF, whether the course isn't completed because of retirement or because of missing out vital parts of it?
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asterix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote asterix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by gordon

The race committee not recording a boat as a finisher when she has finished wouold be grounds for redress,......Gordon
To finish you have to sail the course and cross the line, so if you see them not sail the (correct) course, they are DNF
It happens often enough at my club, people write the course down wrong or go to the wrong buoy in RTC racing, there is rarely any dispute that it was their mistake.
Done it myself, it was the crew's fault!
 
... but rather than being DNF, wouldn't they be DSQ for breaching RRS 28 (assuming they didn't correct ther error)?
 
in what circumstances do you become DNF rather than DSQ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 5:29pm
I think I'd agree that if the RO sees that a boat has sailed the wrong course, then they cannot be counted as a finisher - it is a little like a boat being over the line at the start and just hearing silence at the finish, surely? As has been said, though, wise to take a time, just in case.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by gordon

The race committee not recording a boat as a finisher when she has finished wouold be grounds for redress,......Gordon
To finish you have to sail the course and cross the line, so if you see them not sail the (correct) course, they are DNF
It happens often enough at my club, people write the course down wrong or go to the wrong buoy in RTC racing, there is rarely any dispute that it was their mistake.
Done it myself, it was the crew's fault!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 5:10pm
When there are no witnesses, judges form their own idea of what happened from each competitors statements, based on their own experience as sailors. This can lead to interesting debates:

at one hearing at a one design keelboat regatta evidence was given that an incident occurred just as one boat was starting to take their spinnaker down - for the cruiser-racing judges this was clear evidence that the boats had not reached the zone, whilst for the keelboat sailors on the panel this was clear evidence that boats had already entered the zone...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 5:06pm
The race committee not recording a boat as a finisher when she has finished wouold be grounds for redress, as it is contraryto rule A5. By the time that you have "had a word" with competitor time limit might well have been reached and the RC protest might well be found invalid.

There are ISAF guidelines on what a RC and judges would protest - somewhere in the manuals. Roughly speaking anything that smacks of unfair sailing should be protested (including hitting a mark and sailing on.
Increasingly judges are being asked to more pro-active - commonly by signalling that they believe that they have seen an infringement. Any such request from a class association or organising club would be studied. I would advocate informing competitors.

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asterix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote asterix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 4:41pm
"I would suggest only going to protest if you have sufficient witnesses"
 
isn't this a bit of a general problem -particularly for single handers?
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