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Laser Start?

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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser Start?
    Posted: 15 May 11 at 8:52pm
Basic Principle:
... a body off rules that they are expected to obey and enforce...

A rule was broken, if you are in the right you should protest, if you are in the wrong or unsure you should accept a penalty.








OK I admit my knowledge of R14 was out of date, that's why I read this forum, I've learned something, thanks!
(10 years is not very long in terms of rules knowledge around Portsmouth, when did 'overtaking' leave the rule book?, I heard it from a sailing sec last month I do believe!)
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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 11 at 8:26pm
RC400atC
"Contact without protest, both DSQ."

Under which rule of the 2009-2012 rules would a protest committee impose such a penalty

Could you be thinking of rule 33.2 of a previous version of the rules that have not been applicable for at least 10 years!

Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 11 at 8:14pm
Blueboy,
Contact without protest, both DSQ.

I would say the windward boat's case sounds good.


OP
Whoever first used the word 'overtaking' gets DSQ'd and has to get a round in, unless of course the incident was after sunset.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 11 at 3:31pm
Gordon, would welcome an opinion on a related situation.

Prestart, keelboats L and W are overlapped, both on starboard, luffing and almost stationary. W is clear of L by around a foot and every time W goes up, L closes the gap again to maximise her own gap to leeward. At the gun, L bore away sharply, rotating around her keel and causing her stern to swing to windward and make contact with W. No damage resulted.

I was W. It appeared to me I was making all possible effort to keep clear, particularly since every time I went up, L also went up and that L broke 16.1 (changed course to bear away and did not give me room to keep clear). L considered I broke rule 11. There was no protest.

Thoughts?


Edited by blueboy - 15 May 11 at 3:47pm
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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 11 at 11:41am
There are 2  probable scenarios:

It is extremely improbable that  A was exactly head to wind . Head to wind is a very precise point, not a course  that a boat can remain on for more than a very short time. The rules only mention passing head to wind (a transition) and a boat is only considered to have passed head to wind when it is clear that she has done so (using the principle of "last point of certainty). Unless there is very definite evidence it is safer to assume that A was somewhere between a closehauled course on starboard and the point where she had clearly passed beyond head to wind.

The scenarios depend on how A got to this point of sailing
 
Scenario 1:

If A had luffed from a starboard close hauled course without passing head to wind she is still on starboard.
B approaches from astern. B is keep clear boat (rule 12)
B establishes an overlap to leeward and acquires right of way (rule 11). Rule 15 applies and B must give A room to keep clear. Room is the space needs in the existing conditions to manoeuvre in aseamanlike manner -which for a Laser stopped or sailing very slowly means room to bear away (more to full and by rather than close-hauled). If A does this promptly when B establishes the overlap (not before) than B must give A room to do so. If there is contact whilst A is acting promptly to keep clear then B has broken rule 15.

2 If A has clearly passed beyond head to wind and either returned to starboard tack (without reaching close hauled) or  passed head to wind having been on port tack, but has yet to reach a starboard close-hauled course, then rule 13 applies and A is a keep clear boat.

B does not acquire right of way when she establishes an overlap as she was already ROW boat (see rule 15). A must keep clear. However, if B changes course then rule 16.1 applies and B must give room to A to keep clear.

Hope this is clear

Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 11 at 9:12am
I agree with Jeffers, but there is a need for more info. Just checked through the appeals book, and can find no match, unless there is something we are not being told...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 11 at 8:26am
I am assuming a lot here....
 
A is the windward boat and was sitting head to wind on the start line (why they would sit 'head to wind' I do not know, perhaps they were lying to)
 
B was Leeward and established an overlap at which point A must keep clear
 
B was sailing a close hauled course and did not alter course
 
However if A was stationery then B has to give A enough time to react, this does include bearing away to get the boat moving so they can keep clear (I am pretty sure there is an ISAF case that covers this).
 
What you have not also given are the realtive points of sail leading up to and during the incident..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 11 at 7:27am
Indeed. The other things requiring consideration are whether you could have avoided the collision, and whether you gave the other boat the opportunity to keep clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 11 at 5:58am
Oh, and if boat A was moving backwards at the time by backing its sail then again, it will have forfeited all rights.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 11 at 5:52am
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

It sounds to me like you were in the wrong to be honest without lots more information.
 
I agree, we need lots more information.
If as you added, you were 'also' on starboard, then I'd be inclined to put all my money on boat A being in the wrong.
Had you been on port there would still be a very good chance on boat A being in the wrong...
Note; boat A could only be considered to be 'starboard' tack if had reached 'head to wind' by luffing up from a starboard tack course. If boat A was head to wind from port, then would not have any rights until established a 'close hauled' starboard course and then only on port tack boats.
We do need to establish boat A's rights, and whether in changing course it initially gave room for 'keep clear' boats to do just that.
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