Laser Whinging Thread

"Sure Chris, let the bicycle develop until it is pretty near perfection then halt development to avoid an arms race. Laser are very long way off that point"

"Sure Chris, let the bicycle develop until it is pretty near perfection then halt development to avoid an arms race. Laser are very long way off that point"
Define "perfection".  The speed of Contador's bike compared to the fastest bikes is very close to the same (comparatively) as the speed of a Laser compared to a foiling Moth.  The TT bike I ride to work twice a week is quicker than the bike Contador rode to win the last Tour.  So any claim that bikes are closer to perfection than Lasers is a very big call.  It's just that bike racers accept the restrictions.

Could Lasers be made better? Sure.  Did anyone here say they couldn't be?  I've got 3 centre-sheeted boats and one after-sheet boats and don't find the choice to be a big deal.  Same, personally, with the tracked mast - no way would I drop my good sails between races.  I watched the introduction of the CII with great interest, but it doesn't seem to have set the world on fire.  In a club like mine, introducing a "Laser CII" would only mean you'd lose the chance of racing 43 other boats, in exchange for a minor speed increase in a class that everyone knows isn't particularly fast.  Sort of like making a bigger bonsai tree IMHO.

But the main point isn't the Laser, it's the fact that in sport, there is no relentless advance of technology - sports from golf to cycling to fencing to swimming to F1 and air racing are conducted under rules that greatly restrict potential speed.  It's been said that introducing artificial constraints is the very essence of sport (Usain Bolt isn't allowed to use a dragster to do the 100m) and perhaps the Laser is a classic example of that spirit, rather than a violation.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the spirit in which this conversation has been conducted, and the interesting viewpoints.

Edited by Chris 249 - 16 Apr 11 at 1:28pm

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Chris 249 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041	Post Options Post Reply Quote Chris 249 Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Laser Whinging Thread Posted: 16 Apr 11 at 1:26pm
	"Sure Chris, let the bicycle develop until it is pretty near perfection then halt development to avoid an arms race. Laser are very long way off that point" Define "perfection". The speed of Contador's bike compared to the fastest bikes is very close to the same (comparatively) as the speed of a Laser compared to a foiling Moth. The TT bike I ride to work twice a week is quicker than the bike Contador rode to win the last Tour. So any claim that bikes are closer to perfection than Lasers is a very big call. It's just that bike racers accept the restrictions. Could Lasers be made better? Sure. Did anyone here say they couldn't be? I've got 3 centre-sheeted boats and one after-sheet boats and don't find the choice to be a big deal. Same, personally, with the tracked mast - no way would I drop my good sails between races. I watched the introduction of the CII with great interest, but it doesn't seem to have set the world on fire. In a club like mine, introducing a "Laser CII" would only mean you'd lose the chance of racing 43 other boats, in exchange for a minor speed increase in a class that everyone knows isn't particularly fast. Sort of like making a bigger bonsai tree IMHO. But the main point isn't the Laser, it's the fact that in sport, there is no relentless advance of technology - sports from golf to cycling to fencing to swimming to F1 and air racing are conducted under rules that greatly restrict potential speed. It's been said that introducing artificial constraints is the very essence of sport (Usain Bolt isn't allowed to use a dragster to do the 100m) and perhaps the Laser is a classic example of that spirit, rather than a violation. Anyway, thanks to everyone for the spirit in which this conversation has been conducted, and the interesting viewpoints. Edited by Chris 249 - 16 Apr 11 at 1:28pm

tickel Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 21 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 408	Post Options Post Reply Quote tickel Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Apr 11 at 2:54pm
	Well Chris we will agree to differ. If ever you are in Derbyshire, weigh less than 11 stone you can try my Byte. That may convert you. I must investigate this bike thing as I cannot understand why my Gitane racing bike in 1961 would be so much slower than any more modern contraption. They look similar to my eye whereas the N12 I learned to sail in in the fifties bore no comparison with any "modern" boat. Perhaps if we had frozen development at around that time you may have been even happier? Regards John.
	tickel

Lukepiewalker Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1341	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lukepiewalker Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Apr 11 at 6:24pm
	Actually the cycling development freeze was effectively on the 1st of April 1934...
	Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"

tickel Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 21 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 408	Post Options Post Reply Quote tickel Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Apr 11 at 7:11pm
	There must be more to this Bike thing than I ever imagined. Perhaps you would like to try my Byte Luke.......? 11 stone? Perhaps not!
	tickel

Chris 249 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041	Post Options Post Reply Quote Chris 249 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Apr 11 at 5:16am
	Tickel, thanks for the offer of a go on the Byte. I've done a little bit of sailing on the Byte CII (Ian Bruce let me have a go in one in the final stages of development) and several other Bethwaite flex-tip boats (a development prototype 59er, the prototype B18 18 Foot Skiff, FDB's HSP, a top class B14, etc) and a lot of sailing on other flex-tip rigs and understand the concept. As you say, we can just differ on whether the Laser or other classes should undertake a similar change. Just as you are apparently happy with the Byte CII's hull, which is basically of '70s conception, many of us are happy with the Laser's rig. PS - Your 1961 Gitane is not just much slower than more modern contraptions, it's also slower than much older contraptions. I'm referring, as Luke noted, to recumbent bicycles, which have since the '20s or '30s been much quicker than "normal" bikes. And the fact that very few people in cycling get upset about the fact that their '61 Gitane or 2011 carbon Cervelo is much slower than a '30s recumbent seems to indicate how you CAN restrict speed and technology without impairing the enjoyment we get from a sport. Anyway, best of sailing to you this season... we just ended our season (sniff!!). Edited by Chris 249 - 17 Apr 11 at 11:56am

getafix Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143	Post Options Post Reply Quote getafix Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 19 Apr 11 at 10:55am
	Funny how discussions around the Laser usually centre on 'improving the rig' (which usually, IMO, means "change the sail" in reality) whereas for my 3p worth, I'd actually start on the rudder first, then perhaps the sail followed by the daggerboard were the brief to be contemplating change at a design level, from my time racing them, the Laser Rudder always seemed a relatively 'poor' assembly compared to those available elsewhere in dinghy racing, whereas the sleeved main over two-section main spar arrangement is <still> quite OK, and would really be greatly improved by simply changing the sail construction, rather than shape or overall design, to allow for greater competitive longevity versus bucks-shelled-out-in-the-first-place. .... that's not to say a 1-piece or 2-piece carbon mast & a carbon boom wouldn't help Edited by getafix - 19 Apr 11 at 10:56am

andy101 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 11 Jan 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 176	Post Options Post Reply Quote andy101 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 11:25pm
	As the general agreement seems to be some of the official kit is over priced does anyone have feedback on the of the replica stuff available & where to go for it? I am thinking of sails in particular & have spotted ones from Rooster & Maldon Sailboats that appear to be about half the price - I am not going to any major events! Even though the Replicas are cheaper I would prefer to know they are considered to be just as quick, at the end of the day if I am spending money on a new sail then I would prefer to to pay extra for a good one but if there is no difference then it seems silly to do so.

PeterG Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 12 Jan 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 823	Post Options Post Reply Quote PeterG Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 22 Apr 11 at 2:36pm
	I used to believe that there was no functional difference between the real thing and the replicas. However, having been using a Rooster std main for the past 2 years I bought a discounted Laser one at the dinghy show. There is no question that it is cut better than the Rooster one, it's small differences, and I have no problem with the Rooster build quality, but the Laser one sets better. Whether it makes any difference to my speed is another matter. Statistically that's a sample that's not worth anything! I may just have been unlucky with the Rooster, but it's going to make me view these choices differently in future.
	Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59

Fraggle Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 28 Feb 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 220	Post Options Post Reply Quote Fraggle Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 26 Apr 11 at 10:34am
	Replica sails are always made from different cloth to official sails to make them last longer. As a result they will behave slightly differently and require slightly different trim. They are great for practice/starting out with as long as you bear these differences in mind.